Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #71
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    Default Re: Brandishing and firing off a shot?

    Hey, children, what's that sound?
    Everybody look what's going down...
    There's a man with a gun over there,
    telling me to beware....

  2. #72
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    Default Re: Brandishing and firing off a shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by itchinesu View Post
    do you have anything supporting your OPINION from this millennium ?

    Certainly the FBI must have published statistics documenting events happening millions of times per year, right?
    You sound desperate.

    Have human beings changed in some fundamental way since 1999, such that displaying a weapon scared off bad guys in 1999 but in 2017 it turns them into the Hulk?

    I've provided research from professionals who put a lot of time and effort into all reaching the same basic conclusion, that guns are "waved around" defensively far more often than they are discharged into people, and that it seems to work really well.

    Your evidence that those researchers are wrong is....what? A vivid dream you had?

    Face it, common sense and empirical data and scientific research all agree that you're wrong, and there's no body of evidence that supports your contrarian view. That sets you apart from "climate deniers", because the "deniers" have some of the experts and most of the observable raw data in their favor. You're got stubbornness, which has surprisingly little persuasive value.

    The FBI collects data on reported crimes. The FBI also has no stats on "number of views of MSNBC shows, but that's also irrelevant. They don't systematically collect either set of data. They may have data on attempted robberies, but they don't have a category for "attempted crimes stopped by armed victims" that I know of. Perhaps you can link us to that and prove that "defensive displays" are not within the estimates of a low of 80,000 to over 3 million per year in the linked sites.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

  3. #73
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    Default Re: Brandishing and firing off a shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    You sound desperate.
    Thnx again for your opinion. I would offer to tell you what you sound like, but I'm an adult & don't need to insult people who disagree with me.

    You have your 20+ year old data from a private survey, everyone knows figures can be manipulated. The tobacco industry could point to reports from the medical community back in the 60s declaring tobacco use had no ill effects. The left is still running with some ridiculousness about 90% of gun owners support background checks or half of all firearm purchases are done without them, allegedly based on info collected eons ago. It's hard to pin down how many life threatening incidents were avoided without something like FBI compiled data published at regular intervals, & in reality people are less likely to report such encounters because of bias against gun owners in both law enforcement circles & the court system. I will concede that creating a precedent in support of warning shots or "defensive displays" would be a great help to anyone unlucky enough to find themselves in that situation. I don't see the merit in either, doing so has absolutely 0 impact on my life but I wish you the best of luck defending those that do.

  4. #74
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    Default Re: Brandishing and firing off a shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by itchinesu View Post
    Thnx again for your opinion. I would offer to tell you what you sound like, but I'm an adult & don't need to insult people who disagree with me.

    You have your 20+ year old data from a private survey, everyone knows figures can be manipulated. The tobacco industry could point to reports from the medical community back in the 60s declaring tobacco use had no ill effects. The left is still running with some ridiculousness about 90% of gun owners support background checks or half of all firearm purchases are done without them, allegedly based on info collected eons ago. It's hard to pin down how many life threatening incidents were avoided without something like FBI compiled data published at regular intervals, & in reality people are less likely to report such encounters because of bias against gun owners in both law enforcement circles & the court system. I will concede that creating a precedent in support of warning shots or "defensive displays" would be a great help to anyone unlucky enough to find themselves in that situation. I don't see the merit in either, doing so has absolutely 0 impact on my life but I wish you the best of luck defending those that do.
    Perhaps you just don't understand the discussion. Let me explain.

    Every day, innocent people are attacked by bad people.

    Sometimes, the attack is so severe that it justifies the use of deadly force. Much more often, the attack justifies a lesser response, like non-deadly force, or warnings.

    When you as the innocent person observe an attack becoming likely, there's usually a timeline involved. The other person wants to rob you just because you have money, or he wants to rape you because you're a woman, or he wants to kill you because you cut him off in traffic. Whatever the facts, in many cases the threat becomes apparent before the assault takes place.

    If someone is actively trying to kill, rape, kidnap or maim you, you may draw your gun and shoot him if required to stop him. That's not your only option. You can retreat, if possible, and sometimes you are REQUIRED to retreat, even in PA. I posted the law for you to examine, and I assume you did because you never commented on your mistake again.

    You can also scare him off sometimes. The beauty of that option is that (a) you can usually do that before you'd be justified in killing him, and (b) your burden of proof to justify that is much lower, and (c) nobody dies.

    Now, you threw up some strawman arguments here, but nobody's saying that we all get a pass for "waving guns at people without cause". We're saying that people successfully use defensive displays of firearms much more often than they defensively shoot or kill attackers.

    What's the evidence for that? Every source we can find admits/claims that between 80K and over 3 million times per year, guns are used defensively. We also have FBI numbers that tell us that only a few thousand people are killed by gunfire every year, maybe 10,000, and most of those are criminal homicides. We also know from other sources that 90% of non-head shot gunfire victims survive, while only 10% of head shots are survivable.

    We have anecdotal evidence in news stories reprinted by the NRA. Many of us have personal tales, or have friends with such tales, of scaring off bad guys by showing a gun.

    We have common sense, that if an attacker based his attack on you being unarmed and helpless, then showing a gun would deter him.

    In contrast, we have Bartleby the Scrivener's argument, "I'd prefer not to" believe that evidence. But you have no contradictory evidence of your own. You don't have PA cases where people were convicted for "waving guns" at attackers unless they were in the middle of a drug deal or they provoked the attack. Find me a single case of a non-prohibited homeowner prosecuted and convicted for scaring an intruder by waving a gun at him.

    In England, sure, they'll nail your ass just for having the gun. They tell the sheep over there that self-defense is not an excuse to hurt someone.

    We don't live in England.

    Show me the evidence that a defensive display against an imminent attack has ever been prosecuted successfully in Pennsylvania, where the ONLY bad thing done by the victim was "waving the gun" at the attacker. To be fair, make it in this century, since you seem to feel that anything before 2000 was the Stone Age.

    Otherwise, you should probably stop arguing the law with a lawyer. I'll accept better evidence, like case law or statute, but I won't let you get away with calling factual evidence "opinion", like that jackass in the movie...

    lebowski.jpg
    Last edited by GunLawyer001; September 20th, 2017 at 06:49 PM.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

  5. #75
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    Default Re: Brandishing and firing off a shot?

    https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q589.htm


    Q589: Are there any legal self defence products that I can buy?

    The only fully legal self defence product at the moment is a rape alarm. These are not expensive and can be bought from most local police stations or supermarkets.

    There are other self defence products which claim to be legal (e.g. non toxic sprays), however, until a test case is brought before the court, we cannot confirm their legality or endorse them. If you purchase one you must be aware that if you are stopped by the police and have it in your possession there is always a possibility that you will be arrested and detained until the product, it's contents and legality can be verified.

    However, accepting there is a lot of concern about street crime, we can try to clarify matters a little by putting forward the following points.

    You must not get a product which is made or adapted to cause a person injury. Possession of such a product in public (and in private in specific circumstances) is against the law.
    There are products which squirt a relatively safe, brightly coloured dye (as opposed to a pepper spray). A properly designed product of this nature, used in the way it is intended, should not be able to cause an injury.
    However, be aware that even a seemingly safe product, deliberately aimed and sprayed in someone's eyes, would become an offensive weapon because it would be used in a way that was intended to cause injury.
    Any products bought from abroad have a greater chance of being illegal.

    The above advice is given in good faith, you must make your own decision and this website cannot be held responsible for the consequences of the possession, use or misuse of any self defence product. See Q85 for information on the use of reasonable force.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

  6. #76
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    Default Re: Brandishing and firing off a shot?

    Can you use the rape alarm if you're not being raped, or would you need to by a specific type of alarm to fit the crime? Do they make a belt that holds the various types of alarms for the various street crimes and are those alarms color coded as well as have high contrast braille markings?
    Rules are written in the stone,
    Break the rules and you get no bones,
    all you get is ridicule, laughter,
    and a trip to the house of pain.

  7. #77
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    Default Re: Brandishing and firing off a shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    https://www.askthe.police.uk/content/Q589.htm


    Q589: Are there any legal self defence products that I can buy?

    The only fully legal self defence product at the moment is a rape alarm. These are not expensive and can be bought from most local police stations or supermarkets.

  8. #78
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    Default Re: Brandishing and firing off a shot?

    There is no way to make it out alive...

  9. #79
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    Default Re: Brandishing and firing off a shot?

    In 25 years as a flatfoot I have no idea how many people I have held at gunpoint; probably dozens.
    As a cop I never shot a one of them (although several would have been no-billed g.j. without question).

    Just a few more anecdotes for the fire....
    Crusader's local #556 South Central Asia chapter

  10. #80
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    Default Re: Brandishing and firing off a shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdi View Post
    In 25 years as a flatfoot I have no idea how many people I have held at gunpoint; probably dozens.
    As a cop I never shot a one of them (although several would have been no-billed g.j. without question).

    Just a few more anecdotes for the fire....
    You must have had a rough beat.
    Some people just plain suck.
    If you're gonna be dumb ya gotta be tough.

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