Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #41
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    Default Re: Brandishing and firing off a shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lexington View Post
    I'm in the "should be legal" camp. If a show of force can resolve a situation, then great. If actual force has to be used, then so be it. Animals bare their fangs at a threat in order to get the threat to back off. Sometimes works, sometimes doesn't.
    You can assume The Earp position.

    Rules are written in the stone,
    Break the rules and you get no bones,
    all you get is ridicule, laughter,
    and a trip to the house of pain.

  2. #42
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    (Berks County)
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    Default Re: Brandishing and firing off a shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by streaker69 View Post
    You can assume The Earp position.

    Ah, the ol' Carrot and Boomstick strategy.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Brandishing and firing off a shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by itchinesu View Post
    You are forcing a response one way or another by drawing a weapon, which may not elicit the response you hoped for if you are unprepared to use it.

    I don't see how that helps de-escalate. I know you argue for sport but a warning shot only cements that you had options other than taking a life.
    I'm arguing for an intermediate step between "doing nothing" and "killing the aggressor". After you've tried to retreat, after you've warned that you'll call the cops, there should be a step BEFORE shooting C.O.M., an intermediate step where you demonstrate that you weren't kidding, you have a gun, it's real, and it's loaded.

    Nobody says that it's OK to pull a gun when someone cuts you off in traffic or takes your parking space or refuses to let you take blood from an unconscious accident victim; I'm saying that force is a continuum, and demonstrating the availability of the means to kill an attacker is a legitimate step in that continuum, where the attacker is psyching himself to rape or kill or maim you. Interrupting that predatory momentum is a valid and even praiseworthy act.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Brandishing and firing off a shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    I'm arguing for an intermediate step between "doing nothing" and "killing the aggressor". After you've tried to retreat, after you've warned that you'll call the cops, there should be a step BEFORE shooting C.O.M., an intermediate step where you demonstrate that you weren't kidding, you have a gun, it's real, and it's loaded.

    I'm saying that force is a continuum, and demonstrating the availability of the means to kill an attacker is a legitimate step in that continuum, where the attacker is psyching himself to rape or kill or maim you. Interrupting that predatory momentum is a valid and even praiseworthy act.
    You have no duty to retreat in PA. You have no duty to inform law enforcement or anyone else that you carry a firearm. Shooting for center mass certainly interrupts that predatory momentum, trying to have a discussion or reason with whatever you believe is threatening your life supports the possibility that you have other options.

  5. #45
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    Default Re: Brandishing and firing off a shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by itchinesu View Post
    You have no duty to retreat in PA. You have no duty to inform law enforcement or anyone else that you carry a firearm. Shooting for center mass certainly interrupts that predatory momentum, trying to have a discussion or reason with whatever you believe is threatening your life supports the possibility that you have other options.
    I'm simply going to point out that you're incorrect on the law, irrelevant on the point of informing an aggressor of your weapon, and wrong on the point regarding "options".

    How many "ifs" exist in this section of the law?
    An actor who is not engaged in a criminal activity, who is not in illegal possession of a firearm and who is attacked in any place where the actor would have a duty to retreat under paragraph (2)(ii) has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his ground and use force, including deadly force, if:

    (i) the actor has a right to be in the place where he was attacked;

    (ii) the actor believes it is immediately necessary to do so to protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping or sexual intercourse by force or threat; and

    (iii) the person against whom the force is used displays or otherwise uses:

    (A) a firearm or replica of a firearm as defined in 42 Pa.C.S. § 9712 (relating to sentences for offenses committed with firearms); or

    (B) any other weapon readily or apparently capable of lethal use.
    Last edited by GunLawyer001; September 19th, 2017 at 02:09 PM.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

  6. #46
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    Default Re: Brandishing and firing off a shot?

    Slow day at the office? I get it, you disagree with my position on brandishing but nothing I said supports a scenario where all three conditions weren't met.

    I don't make a habit of telling people how to live their lives. You want to wave guns at people, best of luck.

  7. #47
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    Default Re: Brandishing and firing off a shot?

    itchinesu, it is well established that many crimes are stopped by the showing of a gun and that such defensive measures outnumber shootings by the millions.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Brandishing and firing off a shot?

    Just checking in: Is the side that supports pulling your firearm out, and possibly even discharging it, in a non-life threatening scenario really winning this argument?

    Ok, well I'm just gonna back out slowly now. Nobody get trigger happy. We're all friends here...

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Brandishing and firing off a shot?

    Quote Originally Posted by itchinesu View Post
    Slow day at the office? I get it, you disagree with my position on brandishing but nothing I said supports a scenario where all three conditions weren't met.

    I don't make a habit of telling people how to live their lives. You want to wave guns at people, best of luck.
    That's a strawman argument, and evidence that you really kind of understand that your position is defective. Your position seems to be "better to shoot them dead than to wave a gun at them". I disagree. Most people disagree. The law disagrees, which is why you have a higher burden to establish justification for killing someone than for scaring them.

    You wrote:
    You have no duty to retreat in PA. This is a false statement of the law; you do have a duty to retreat before using deadly force, but that duty is relieved under specified circumstances. Telling the casual lurker that we have no duty to retreat does nobody any good.

    You have no duty to inform law enforcement or anyone else that you carry a firearm. True, but irrelevant. You have no duty to eat a balanced diet, either, but for many people it's a really good idea anyway. Scaring away an aggressor subjects you to less legal jeopardy than shooting them does. That's just a fact. Defensive displays are the MAJORITY of successful defensive uses of firearms. That's the real world, not the Internet tough guy world.

    Shooting for center mass certainly interrupts that predatory momentum, trying to have a discussion or reason with whatever you believe is threatening your life supports the possibility that you have other options. This is like saying that if I'm in my car and there's a truck veering into my lane, I shouldn't try to steer away because that implies that I have options other than using the brakes. It's a non sequitur. You are justified in displaying a firearm much earlier in the time frame of an attack than you are justified in shooting the aggressor; you can "wave a gun around" if a bunch of angry toughs come running at you, but you can't legally shoot until your own death, rape, kidnapping or maiming is imminent.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Brandishing and firing off a shot?

    Pulling out my gun and pointing it at someone is all the warning they will get.

    If I pull the trigger, my sights will be center mass.

    If they back down, so much the better.

    I really don't want to ever have to kill anyone, but I will if they force me to.

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