How would you feel if your FFL...

[STBear]

I do what works for me. A dead breaker box is a guarantee that any wire I touch isn't live; betting my life on a Chinese device is not a guarantee.

I do the same thing.

[marinville]

I was trying to be conciliatory, but I can see that's not going to stick.

If my ground rods were part of the work you would be doing, and you could go to jail if they were inoperable, then I'd accept reasonable efforts on your part to make that determination. I'm no electrical expert, but I've never seen ground rods that were installed horizontally under a garden. If I hired you to rewire a light fixture and you pulled up my ground rods and threw them away, we'd be having heated words.

Did the FFL damage the gun? Did the FFL use a cutting torch or an industrial lathe to rip the crap out of the gun? Or did he do what ATF would do, apply a wrench to the muzzle brake to see if it came off readily?

If you have to go to extremes, your argument is weak. My position is that reasonable steps to determine whether the rifle passing through his book is contraband or not, are acceptable. You seem to be saying that reasonable steps are unreasonable, that his A&D book exists for your convenience and it's none of his business what you run through there. That's not going to be a popular view among FFL's, which is why I suggest that you clarify that point before doing any transfers with any other FFL.

Perhaps I dont find that to be extreme. Perhaps I find it reasonable. Perhaps I should check inside your meterbase as well, to be sure you aren't stealing power. After all, some folks do that kinda thing. Or perhaps I should just rewire your light fixture and fuck off, because I have no reason to suspect you of doing anything shady, and it isnt even my job to determine if you are.

[Nate7667]

Does your electrician license get revoked and possible fines laid on you if you let something illegal pass through your business and your log books of work that you have to keep for Electrical Agency of the Government knowing full well it was or could be an illegal item but didnt want to check it.

Again, the FFL's approach was all wrong, but the actual reason was valid. Again just my opinion.

[chmcnm]

Perhaps I dont find that to be extreme. Perhaps I find it reasonable. Perhaps I should check inside your meterbase as well, to be sure you aren't stealing power. After all, some folks do that kinda thing. Or perhaps I should just rewire your light fixture and fuck off, because I have no reason to suspect you of doing anything shady, and it isnt even my job to determine if you are.

The difference is he could lose his business or face jail time for incorrect logging. You wouldn't be culpable if I'm stealing electricity. Be more upset at the rules that made him check.

[marinville]

The difference is he could lose his business or face jail time for incorrect logging. You wouldn't be culpable if I'm stealing electricity. Be more upset at the rules that made him check.

Do you honestly feel that the govt. has a winning case against joe blow FFL for illegally trafficing in unregistered SBRs for not physically applying a wrench and a reasonable (by whos standard, btw) amount of force to every single allegedly pinned 14.5" bbl rifle that enters his shop?

[GunLawyer001]

Perhaps I dont find that to be extreme. Perhaps I find it reasonable. Perhaps I should check inside your meterbase as well, to be sure you aren't stealing power. After all, some folks do that kinda thing. Or perhaps I should just rewire your light fixture and fuck off, because I have no reason to suspect you of doing anything shady, and it isnt even my job to determine if you are.

Thanks, I think that I now understand.

You're confused about what happened. You don't understand the issues. This explains much.

If you brought a gun into an FFL for shipping to another FFL, and he called the cops in to run ballistics on the gun, just to see if they matched any unsolved crimes, THEN I would be right there with you.

That's nothing at all like what he did.

You seem to not understand the difference between a nosy cop-wanna-be, and a regulated FFL who is personally liable both criminally and with loss of his livelihood.

Any gun on his premises, in his custody, is the potential basis for criminal liability to the premises owner.

Any gun transferred into his A&D book and thence to another person, is the basis for criminal liability and loss of his livelihood.

In no sense is it "none of his business" whether that rifle is an unregistered SBR or not. When YOU ask him to take possession of it, YOU MAKE IT HIS BUSINESS. Anything that he knew or should have known, he's liable for knowing. Nearly everyone knows that a 14.5" barrel on a rifle makes an SBR, and then the exceptions kick in.

Thanks for clarifying this, that you are simply unaware of the legal reality. You're arguing that he shouldn't be investigating crimes unrelated to this transaction, while most of us were arguing the actual facts and the applicable laws and regs.

[GunLawyer001]

Do you honestly feel that the govt. has a winning case against joe blow FFL for illegally trafficing in unregistered SBRs for not physically applying a wrench and a reasonable (by whos standard, btw) amount of force to every single allegedly pinned 14.5" bbl rifle that enters his shop?

How many NFA cases have you been involved in, or even read?

[marinville]

How many NFA cases have you been involved in, or even read?

Is that a yes?

[GunLawyer001]

Is that a yes?

Depending on the circumstances, yes, a professional gun seller who transferred an unregistered SBR WOULD lose his license and COULD be criminally convicted.

What are the chances that a non-professional, non-FFL could be convicted for possessing an unregistered "machinegun" based on defective parts that allowed it to fire 2 or 3 shots at a time?

What are the chances that a man could be charged with manufacturing an unregistered SBS that had an 18" barrel but an overall length of roughly 25.8"?

What are the chances that an FFL could follow the letter of the law, transfer some imported guns to some National Guard members, then transfer them from those NG members to private citizens as facially allowed by the laws and regs?

What are the chances that a cop could use his LEO discount to buy a gun, then transfer that gun through another FFL to his non-prohibited uncle, and then be successfully prosecuted?

[Nate7667]

Depending on the circumstances, yes, a professional gun seller who transferred an unregistered SBR WOULD lose his license and COULD be criminally convicted.

What are the chances that a non-professional, non-FFL could be convicted for possessing an unregistered "machinegun" based on defective parts that allowed it to fire 2 or 3 shots at a time?

What are the chances that a man could be charged with manufacturing an unregistered SBS that had an 18" barrel but an overall length of roughly 25.8"?

What are the chances that an FFL could follow the letter of the law, transfer some imported guns to some National Guard members, then transfer them from those NG members to private citizens as facially allowed by the laws and regs?

What are the chances that a cop could use his LEO discount to buy a gun, then transfer that gun through another FFL to his non-prohibited uncle, and then be successfully prosecuted?

Like that would ever happen...