How would you feel if your FFL...

[streaker69]

Or for under $17 you could get a non-contact voltage sensor to determine if you turned off the correct circuit or not.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Too...1SEN/100661787

Sometimes, going to the extreme, isn't the best path.

[GunLawyer001]

Or for under $17 you could get a non-contact voltage sensor to determine if you turned off the correct circuit or not.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Too...1SEN/100661787

Sometimes, going to the extreme, isn't the best path.

I do what works for me. A dead breaker box is a guarantee that any wire I touch isn't live; betting my life on a Chinese device is not a guarantee.

[chmcnm]

For the record, i have done 5-6 transactions with this FFL over the last 2-3 years, including a supressor.

I've used Jordan as an FFL since he opened. Nice guy and very knowledgeable. I don't know all the facts but benefit of the doubt comes to mind for this situation. He's caught between customer and ATF rules.

[marinville]

I'm no electrician, but I've done some rewiring. One thing that I learned is that it's a pain to shut off the main breaker before doing work on a 110 line. But it's a lot worse to touch a live wire.

One time, I followed the wires from a particular outlet in the basement back to the fuse box. I was 100% sure of which circuit that outlet was on. So I shut off that circuit, the basement lights went out as expected, and I used a flashlight to see the tangle of wires that needed work. I could either reach and and untwist the wires by hand, or I could use a snips to cut the wires. I chose to cut the wires.

One huge loud crackling spark later, I realized that I had NOT shut off the circuit that fed that particular junction, which had a few lines going in and out.

Why is this relevant? Because now I shut the power off to 100% of the house whenever I do that kind of task. It's annoying to reset all the clocks and deal with the fridge and such, but it's nothing compared to being electrocuted.

An FFL can't be an FFL if ATF pulls his license. ATF can and will pull his license if he's found with unregistered NFA firearms on his premises or transferred through his A&D book. A smart FFL will double-check everything that every customer or potential customer tells him, if an error would result in illegality.

I understand that some customers really don't care about the FFL's survival. I understand that some of you are horrified that an FFL applied some torque to a part that's designed to be torqued on. I understand that your virgin police trade-in has been violated, after years of sitting in a safe and/or rattling around in the trunk of various cop cars.

Every business finds customers who it can live without. Perhaps anyone who refuses to understand the FFL's risks and precautions here falls into that category. I think most PAFOA members understand that ATF can be a harsh regulator, that ATF doesn't stand for "Amazingly Thoughtful Folks".

Some ATF agents are really good folks, but an FFL doesn't get to pick and choose which agents he deals with.

The 1982 Senate report found that the vast majority of ATF compliance actions and criminal prosecutions targeted people who had never been in trouble with the law before. That was a big part of the 1986 FOPA. They weren't infiltrating the Hell's Angels or Mexican drug gangs or terrorists, they were busy setting up mom & pop stores with random short barrels and bogus straw purchases. That hasn't changed that much.

The ONLY thing keeping an unregistered 14.5" barreled rifle from being a felony is a muzzle device that won't come off when wrenched. If you plan to boycott this FFL for putting a wrench to the thing, WITHOUT damaging it at all, then like I said, his business can probably survive without you, and perhaps you ought to warn every other FFL of your attitude before dealing with them.

For whatever its worth, I am an electrican and if you knew what you were doing, you wouldnt get buzzed.

As you suggest, the FFL will likely survive without my business, and thats fine with me.

[GunLawyer001]

For whatever its worth, I am an electrican and if you knew what you were doing, you wouldnt get buzzed.

As you suggest, the FFL will likely survive without my business, and thats fine with me.

If I hired you to do electrical work in my house, rest assured that I wouldn't be second-guessing you about permits or code requirements.

[Emptymag]

An FFL should treat all customers as potential lying cheating criminals, got it.

Guilty until proven innocent.

[GunLawyer001]

Guilty until proven innocent.

If you wear a black robe and preside over criminal trials, that would be wrong.

In other venues, treat all strangers as flawed until proven otherwise. That's how you avoid phishing schemes and Nigerian scams and pickpockets and people getting into your house "to use a phone because our car broke down somewhere out of sight from here".

[Sgt.K]

The ONLY thing keeping an unregistered 14.5" barreled rifle from being a felony is a muzzle device that won't come off when wrenched. If you plan to boycott this FFL for putting a wrench to the thing, WITHOUT damaging it at all, then like I said, his business can probably survive without you, and perhaps you ought to warn every other FFL of your attitude before dealing with them.

To clarify my stance somewhat:

If wrenching needs to be done to make the determination, is there a point - short of damaging the rifle - that constitutes "sufficient" torque to make the determination? If so, what is it? Is it quantifiable? Is it documented (this is big)? Does the FFL in question know what it is (this is bigger)? Does he have the tools to take the appropriate reading? Do we know for certain he did not damage it?

I'm a fairly big guy, I can lay a lot of torque onto a barrel. As an FFL, at what point do I exceed ATF requirements and get into potentially damaging a device or barrel that were way more than adequately "permanent", just to satisfy my own nervousness?

A reasonable investigation into the legality of the upper, to protect the FFL, is fine by me. I want to know, by the numbers, what is reasonable...

[marinville]

If I hired you to do electrical work in my house, rest assured that I wouldn't be second-guessing you about permits or code requirements.

And if you came home and I had dug up your wife's vegetable garden to make sure your ground rods were installed in accordance with code, Im sure you would understand.

[GunLawyer001]

And if you came home and I had dug up your wife's vegetable garden to make sure your ground rods were installed in accordance with code, Im sure you would understand.

I was trying to be conciliatory, but I can see that's not going to stick.

If my ground rods were part of the work you would be doing, and you could go to jail if they were inoperable, then I'd accept reasonable efforts on your part to make that determination. I'm no electrical expert, but I've never seen ground rods that were installed horizontally under a garden. If I hired you to rewire a light fixture and you pulled up my ground rods and threw them away, we'd be having heated words.

Did the FFL damage the gun? Did the FFL use a cutting torch or an industrial lathe to rip the crap out of the gun? Or did he do what ATF would do, apply a wrench to the muzzle brake to see if it came off readily?

If you have to go to extremes, your argument is weak. My position is that reasonable steps to determine whether the rifle passing through his book is contraband or not, are acceptable. You seem to be saying that reasonable steps are unreasonable, that his A&D book exists for your convenience and it's none of his business what you run through there. That's not going to be a popular view among FFL's, which is why I suggest that you clarify that point before doing any transfers with any other FFL.