Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #41
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
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    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
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    Default Re: CLAIM: Open carry not permitted if possessing LTCF

    Just so we're on the same page, wanting to know who is telling people dumb shit is not the same as calling for a boycott.
    See you at the NEXT PAFOA GROUP SHOOT Saturday August 19(link)
    GUNS & BACON & GUNS & BACON & BACON & BACON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  2. #42
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
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    Brookville, Pennsylvania
    (Jefferson County)
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    Default Re: CLAIM: Open carry not permitted if possessing LTCF

    Quote Originally Posted by Emptymag View Post
    Just so we're on the same page, wanting to know who is telling people dumb shit is not the same as calling for a boycott.
    I just wanted to put my 2 cents worth out there. ....some folks in this world do take things to extremes.
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot, dregan, Frenchy, Fragger.

  3. #43
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    Dec 2006
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    Bucks, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: CLAIM: Open carry not permitted if possessing LTCF

    Quote Originally Posted by Emptymag View Post
    Just so we're on the same page, wanting to know who is telling people dumb shit is not the same as calling for a boycott.
    I haven't seen that distinction in the past, not here and not in the general public's discourse. The distance between "they said something I don't like" and "they must die financially to be punished as a lesson to the others" is short.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Thanks to all who attended my Firearms Law Workshops this year!

  4. #44
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
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    age: 55, Dillsburg, Pennsylvania
    (York County)
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    Default Re: CLAIM: Open carry not permitted if possessing LTCF

    Back in '82 when I applied for my first LTCF, I was told the same thing by the local police where I applied. Probably just another misguided, misinformed, pabulum puker who doesn't bother to keep up with the times. Dinosaurs are not all extinct.

  5. #45
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
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    Mechanicsburg, Pennsylvania
    (Cumberland County)
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    Default Re: CLAIM: Open carry not permitted if possessing LTCF

    Quote Originally Posted by RayDiffraction View Post
    Please bear in mind that I have sincere respect for the posters in this forum and would not want even a total stranger to get ripped off or be given bad info from some clown LGS. Normally I would name names (and I have with other issues in other forums), but it would be irresponsible for me to do so and possibly very unfair to this person and business. Here's why:

    1. Nobody intentionally lied to me and I certainly did not get ripped off on my purchase. I got a better deal than expected.
    2. I would need to confirm with 100% certainty that the erroneous claim was not said in jest before outing the person/LGS and damaging the business. Even if I did that, I could still be hit with a LIBEL LAWSUIT, and I have no witnesses.
    3. The inaccurate info did no real harm, did not cause a dangerous situation, and will be corrected shortly.
    4. Owner is an articulate 2nd Amendment advocate who who was 100% spot on with his other statements.
    5. LGS was very friendly, very helpful, and owned by a veteran.
    6. And if you re-read GunLawyer001's post in this discussion, you will be reminded that there are people in positions of authority with the government who have gotten this particular issue wrong. If the LGS owner learned his erroneous information from one of these "authorities," how can you so easily blame the LGS owner?

    If he ripped me off or told me something like "you really shouldn't open carry around here because it upsets too many soccer moms," you'd know the name already. I realize that there are a variety of reasons one may wish to know names, but prudence (legal) and my conscience will not allow me to ruin someone's livelihood over something that he may have been told by an uninformed LEO/Sheriff/DA/DJ....or even learned from his USCCA trainer.
    As a veteran of multiple conflicts I have to ask, what does his status as a veteran have to do with anything? David Berkowitz, Tim McVeigh, Gary Ridgeway, Jeffrey Dahmer, Lee Harvey Oswald, Charles Whitman, John Anthony Walker... they were all veterans. "Veteran" can be defined in many ways. You can do a 4 year stint in the Coast Guard Reserve spending weekends patrolling Lake Ontario and call yourself a veteran (no ding on the Coasties, it's just an example). Some define a veteran as one who has deployed to a war zone or retired from 20 yrs of Federal service. Some Fed agencies want to see a campaign ribbon to credit veteran service.

    As for the soccer mom comment... You'd be more offended/concerned that he would say that than spewing incorrect legal advice? Those are some twisted priorities. I risk offending my neighbors every time I load the car to go to the range or hunting. In the past 20 yrs I've had cops "conveniently" show up at various residences at least 4 times because I was seen loading or unloading multiple firearms from my vehicle. Each time they left pretty quickly and I told them it was unfortunate some idiot wasted their time. The bottom line is the possibility of offending one of my bunny petting tree hugger neighbors does NOT even cross my mind. People that are relied on for accurate advice but don't have any common sense are a concern. Fortunately you realized his knowledge was questionable but how many others have gone to this idiot seeking guidance and been misled? Due to his business and profession, many will see him as a subject matter expert. How many first time gun owners or single moms wanting to protect their children could be going to this guy and receiving a total bullshit story that could land them in legal trouble? Providing details of the shop name and location is not a malicious action, it is simply a means of protecting our members. I'd give him my business but I would also keep in mind he's not always correct. It is the gun shop owners responsibility to ensure he provides accurate and truthful advice.

    As for his certification as a USSCA instructor.... this is just my opinion but that is not the most reputable credential to advertise. Anyone can get their certificate to hang on the wall if they pay a fee and complete an online class. Two of my soldiers completed the course last spring and were not impressed. The online portion was generic and basically tells you to know the laws of your state. This makes sense since each state differs but we already know this. At the written test the instructor provided answers to several students that were struggling. Below are the instructions from USCCA's website.

    Steps To Become A Certified Instructor

    1. Activate and complete the USCCA Concealed Carry & Home Defense Fundamentals eLearning module.

    At this time, you will also purchase your USCCA Instructor Toolkit which includes your classroom presentation PowerPoint, 10 copies of Concealed Carry & Home Defense Fundamentals by Author Michael Martin, a classroom poster, 10 copies of Concealed Carry Magazine, and a USCCA Instructor Polo and range cap.

    Call 1-877-577-4800 to purchase your eLearning module and to order your toolkit. Instructor candidates can purchase these together at a discounted price. (You will receive your toolkit after completing Step 3, the USCCA Instructor Certification Course.)

    2. Find and Sign up for a USCCA Instructor Certification class with a USCCA Training Counselor near you.

    3. Attend a USCCA Instructor Certification course with a USCCA Training Counselor and qualify by passing both live fire and written examinations. You will receive your toolkit after completing the USCCA Instructor Certification Course.

  6. #46
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Bethlehem, Pennsylvania
    (Northampton County)
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    Default Re: CLAIM: Open carry not permitted if possessing LTCF

    Quote Originally Posted by RayDiffraction View Post
    Thanks for the replies. In the discussion for which I provided a link in my first post, there are at least two posters who stated that law enforcement officers propagated this erroneous information in two different counties, Chester and Lebanon. Apparently this myth has spread all the way across PA to where I am. I'll be sure to bring this to the attention of the shop owner.
    In post #6, OP says "I'll be sure to bring this to the attention of the shop owner."

    That should be enough, IMHO. No need to burn his store to the ground (figuratively).

    OP, as a responsible member of the 2A community, please be sure to do what you say. We police our own, and sometimes we even eat our own! :-)
    Help protect your 2A rights in PA. Join PA4SP.

  7. #47
    Join Date
    May 2013
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    Prospect park, Pennsylvania
    (Delaware County)
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    Default Re: CLAIM: Open carry not permitted if possessing LTCF

    Blah, blah, blah, Why not just say it was Frank at Frank's Double Tap, remember that guy? So what it's across the State, we know that owner's an asshole,,,Had to be him!!!!

  8. #48
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    Mar 2008
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    Western PA, Pennsylvania
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    Default Re: CLAIM: Open carry not permitted if possessing LTCF

    Quote Originally Posted by MT1 View Post
    As a veteran of multiple conflicts I have to ask, what does his status as a veteran have to do with anything? David Berkowitz, Tim McVeigh, Gary Ridgeway, Jeffrey Dahmer, Lee Harvey Oswald, Charles Whitman, John Anthony Walker... they were all veterans. "Veteran" can be defined in many ways. You can do a 4 year stint in the Coast Guard Reserve spending weekends patrolling Lake Ontario and call yourself a veteran (no ding on the Coasties, it's just an example). Some define a veteran as one who has deployed to a war zone or retired from 20 yrs of Federal service. Some Fed agencies want to see a campaign ribbon to credit veteran service.
    The purpose of my statement was to humanize the store owner against calls for outing him, which carries with it the real possibility of unjustly punishing his business, and in turn, his family. Many gun buyers are veterans, and a good deal of them look to patronize any veteran owned business. His veteran status adds to the picture of making him a real person and a builds a connection, albeit not deeply explored here, with the many veterans on this board. (BTW, I am aware of the specifics of his service but will not post them for the curious to piece together the owner's identity.)

    As for the soccer mom comment... You'd be more offended/concerned that he would say that than spewing incorrect legal advice? Those are some twisted priorities. I risk offending my neighbors every time I load the car to go to the range or hunting. In the past 20 yrs I've had cops "conveniently" show up at various residences at least 4 times because I was seen loading or unloading multiple firearms from my vehicle. Each time they left pretty quickly and I told them it was unfortunate some idiot wasted their time. The bottom line is the possibility of offending one of my bunny petting tree hugger neighbors does NOT even cross my mind. People that are relied on for accurate advice but don't have any common sense are a concern. Fortunately you realized his knowledge was questionable but how many others have gone to this idiot seeking guidance and been misled? Due to his business and profession, many will see him as a subject matter expert. How many first time gun owners or single moms wanting to protect their children could be going to this guy and receiving a total bullshit story that could land them in legal trouble? Providing details of the shop name and location is not a malicious action, it is simply a means of protecting our members. I'd give him my business but I would also keep in mind he's not always correct. It is the gun shop owners responsibility to ensure he provides accurate and truthful advice.
    I agree that the "soccer mom" comment wasn't a strong example. A while after I posted it I wanted to change it, but by that time it had been quoted in subsequent posts.
    Out of respect for the integrity of this thread, I did not edit it to something better. The point I was trying to make that it wasn't as if he were a strong advocate against our rights, with one example being the right to open carry. I also liked knight0334's Dick's Sporting Goods "assault weapons" example.

    To your other point, bear in mind that this person was not an endless fount of incorrect legal advice. He got everything else right, but made ONE error that apparently is more common than I had realized. It's also difficult to hold this owner responsible if he indeed learned it from a trusted authority and was trying to be helpful. You are questioning his common sense, but the other side of that coin is that it should be common knowledge among all of us here that states do pass gun laws that don't make sense. Also, if we are honest with ourselves, I think everyone reading this can think of an occasion in which we learned some incorrect information on a rule/regulation/law (if you are a hunter, it's likely you have) and maybe even disseminated it with the best of intentions to someone else.

    As for his certification as a USSCA instructor.... this is just my opinion but that is not the most reputable credential to advertise. Anyone can get their certificate to hang on the wall if they pay a fee and complete an online class. Two of my soldiers completed the course last spring and were not impressed. The online portion was generic and basically tells you to know the laws of your state. This makes sense since each state differs but we already know this. At the written test the instructor provided answers to several students that were struggling. Below are the instructions from USCCA's website.

    Steps To Become A Certified Instructor

    1. Activate and complete the USCCA Concealed Carry & Home Defense Fundamentals eLearning module.

    At this time, you will also purchase your USCCA Instructor Toolkit which includes your classroom presentation PowerPoint, 10 copies of Concealed Carry & Home Defense Fundamentals by Author Michael Martin, a classroom poster, 10 copies of Concealed Carry Magazine, and a USCCA Instructor Polo and range cap.

    Call 1-877-577-4800 to purchase your eLearning module and to order your toolkit. Instructor candidates can purchase these together at a discounted price. (You will receive your toolkit after completing Step 3, the USCCA Instructor Certification Course.)

    2. Find and Sign up for a USCCA Instructor Certification class with a USCCA Training Counselor near you.

    3. Attend a USCCA Instructor Certification course with a USCCA Training Counselor and qualify by passing both live fire and written examinations. You will receive your toolkit after completing the USCCA Instructor Certification Course.
    I also have familiarity with some of the USCCA and NRA programs and certs. (researched them as a prospective trainee). I wasn't holding his cert. as an indicator of the highest level of training and guaranteed gun law expertise. I included it to indicate that the owner wasn't simply a gun enthusiast who worked behind a display counter. He was yet another person with SOME expected degree of authority on gun law who also made the open carry claim in question. In my mind, he joined the list of others with this claim in the discussion link I placed in Post #1 of this thread. Grouping him with the others made me question if there were indeed some quirky law in PA that I didn't know about, and it's why I came to PAFOA to ask about it.
    Last edited by RayDiffraction; July 11th, 2017 at 12:55 PM.

  9. #49
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Wayne, Pennsylvania
    (Delaware County)
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    Default Re: CLAIM: Open carry not permitted if possessing LTCF

    Quote Originally Posted by donotknowme View Post
    Make a bet with him before you bring it up.
    Make the bet consequential enough, just to see if that lingering doubt creeps into his eyes. That tell alone, should give you enough vindication, but also give him an out. If he doesn't take it, make it hurt...financially.
    Education beats propaganda!
    "Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable"

  10. #50
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    Frazer, Pennsylvania
    (Chester County)
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    Default Re: CLAIM: Open carry not permitted if possessing LTCF

    It's time to shop another gun store it may be a likely scenario where he tries to sell you ammo meant for full auto instead of a semi auto.

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