Combat vs Competiton, Sighted vs Instinct

[Brownie]

After having been on several forums over the last couple of years what I have noticed is that the boards are dominated by sighted competition shooters. Now I dont know if that stems from Coopers MT and propagation of IPSC, IDPA etc but it seems so. I know this is an old argument but I find most of it nonsense. 98% of these guys no matter where you find them are sighted fire competition shooters. Now, I've been around the block a few times, seen combat, been in a few gunfights and dont ever remember seeing my sights. In fact I dont ever remember using 2 hands to fire my handgun. I'm not saying its a bad thing but I dont believe it is realistic if you carry conceal to believe you are going to be capable of getting up on the sights. So why do so many people train that way? Most gunfights happen within the 10' range. There is no time. Do they actually believe that they will have the opportunity of sighted fire or that they will be capable of even doing so with the adrenaline dump? Do they believe its going to happen at 15-25yds? I read somewhere today where someone said "quick draw" wasn't critical. I actually lost my coffee on the keyboard. 1st time thats happened and they weren't talking about a gunfight at distance. It was bad breath distance.

What brought me to this is I see a lot of people that could die from drinking the kool-aid from the MT crowd that they have been fed. If you are going to carry a firearm it would seem to me that practicing systems that teach Close quarter gunfighting/battle would be your lifesaver if ever needed. I actually joined IDPA at one time but never shot a match nor attended one even though I intended to and am now having second thoughts. Reason is muscle memory, I dont want to get caught up in that rut. It might be fun but I dont carry every day for fun. When the SHTF I want my reactions to be instinctual. Which is where training in the Threat Focused skills/Quick kill skills, Point shooting skills by F.A.S and I even like some of the C.A.R. stuff that I think is useful. All 3 training methods I believe would be the most likely to keep you alive when things go bad. I'm not against sighted fire, I think it has its place in combat but only out past the 10-15 yd mark. As I practice dry fire at home i've found myself really practicing on draw speed and fire at 1/2 hip. Whoever gets metal on meat first is most likely the winner. This is after all survival, not competition. I've trained in two handed sighted fire quite a bit also however that wont be my instinctual draw and fire when it goes down. I could go on and on about this subject but I think I'll leave it for now. Lastly, I'm a common sense guy with just a little experience and the Quick Kill techniques just make sense to me. Guess I drank the wrong Kool-Aid according to most.

[thanker92]

After 50 years of sighted shooting of all kinds I found out that I enjoyed instinct shooting. I discovered that the brain was capable of working it all out by itself. I first started with shotgun and found I was better when I didn't think about all the little things. I then found out that I was a better shot with a handgun if I did the same. I practice with a single shot BB gun and 8" paper plates stapled to trees. I also found that a laser sight on my carry weapon makes me a much better shot...I consider it a good compromise between the two schools....that, and the fact that my 70 year old eyes don't quite work as well as they used to.

[Eod1]

Thanker92 I found that when I shoot skeet I don't lead the bird, just point and shoot. Same way with pistol. The only time I use the sights would be when I have the can on. Then I practice shooting around someone else. Other wise its all instinctive shooting

[Gunsnwater]

Crawl walk run. Put in your 10,000 hrs. Train with a pusher who knows how to push. Free your mind of doubt.

It is a process. No man is born to the gun. It is a martial art. It must be learned. It will be personal. Technique is a guide to your path. Only you set your limits.

If you start with a good foundation you can build a very strong and beautiful house. If you neglect the foundation no amount of ornamentation will prop it up.

[mbinpa]

I wounder if some of the differences are generational.

I am 60 yr. and was raised on Bullseye shooting. One hand hold, side stance - sight picture, trigger breath control critical. The only three guns available were .22lr, .38 revolver and 1911.
I was very good at it. Shot on college team and then leagues.

Then I got interested in "police shooting". 2 guns - .38 and 1911. One hand to 25 yard, weaver stance closer. Courses were timed but 6 rounds in 10 seconds seemed about the right speed.

From what I have read, watched and participated in it is all different now. Speed is everything, very short range (relatively) and accuracy is valued lower - that is, the scoring circle is now more then 1" in diameter.

I enjoy both but am caught between the two worlds. My bullseye training has served me very well - I shoot more accurately then most. But not as fast because I am always searching for the proper sight picture.

Muscle memory becomes more important then concentration. Drawing and reloading skills more critical then ever.

It is a different skill set - and one that seems to be changing often. Bullseye was always the same - 'practical or combat' seems to change from year to year. Different stances, different ideas about sight picture, etc.

I do enjoy it but sometime I just seem confused watching other and wondering what is going on....

[Hawk]

If you don't aim how do you know if and where your shots land?
In practicing point shooting/instinctive shooting on paper targets, most people use the visible holes in the target to provide instant feedback to where each round hits. This is a kind of cheating because it permits one to make shot to shot adjustments via visible indicators, and if that is the extent of their training they will come up short.

I imagine that on human targets you typically won't see where you shots land and unless the target reacts to your shot impacting their body, you may not have any feed back to know if you had any hits on target. With point or instinctive shooting, you have to totally rely on practicing enough to have faith your un-aimed shots land where you wanted them to land. Using sights may be slower, but it permits the average Joe a method to get shots on target.

[Brownie]

If you don't aim how do you know if and where your shots land?

With various threat focused/point shooting skills, one is still aiming the muzzle at threat, just not using the sights as a visual reference.

In practicing point shooting/instinctive shooting on paper targets, most people use the visible holes in the target to provide instant feedback to where each round hits. This is a kind of cheating because it permits one to make shot to shot adjustments via visible indicators, and if that is the extent of their training they will come up short.

I imagine that on human targets you typically won't see where you shots land and unless the target reacts to your shot impacting their body, you may not have any feed back to know if you had any hits on target. With point or instinctive shooting, you have to totally rely on practicing enough to have faith your un-aimed shots land where you wanted them to land.

See above, you're still aiming.

Using sights may be slower, but it permits the average Joe a method to get shots on target.

Here you go, a 1911 with no sights on the gun whatsoever. One does NOT need sights to get shots on target. There's a LOT of shooters trying to use their sights to make hits that can't hold the groups seen shot in real time here. And people think sights are necessary to hit?

[Brownie]

Hawk, here's another one that should dispel the old wives tale that one can't aim and hit without sights. I've got that muzzle aimed correctly from the hip. IF my aim was off, I'd not be making these hits.

I KNOW where my hits are going, on threat, without any need of bringing the gun to eye level.

[Brownie]

Crawl walk run. Put in your 10,000 hrs. Train with a pusher who knows how to push. Free your mind of doubt.

It is a process. No man is born to the gun. It is a martial art. It must be learned. It will be personal. Technique is a guide to your path. Only you set your limits.

If you start with a good foundation you can build a very strong and beautiful house. If you neglect the foundation no amount of ornamentation will prop it up.

I like the way you think sir, my sig line basically imparts the same mentality.

[Emptymag]

If you don't aim how do you know if and where your shots land?
In practicing point shooting/instinctive shooting on paper targets, most people use the visible holes in the target to provide instant feedback to where each round hits. This is a kind of cheating because it permits one to make shot to shot adjustments via visible indicators, and if that is the extent of their training they will come up short.

I imagine that on human targets you typically won't see where you shots land and unless the target reacts to your shot impacting their body, you may not have any feed back to know if you had any hits on target. With point or instinctive shooting, you have to totally rely on practicing enough to have faith your un-aimed shots land where you wanted them to land. Using sights may be slower, but it permits the average Joe a method to get shots on target.

USE THE FORCE, LUKE