Combat vs Competiton, Sighted vs Instinct

[Mtbkski]

If you don't aim how do you know if and where your shots land?
In practicing point shooting/instinctive shooting on paper targets, most people use the visible holes in the target to provide instant feedback to where each round hits. This is a kind of cheating because it permits one to make shot to shot adjustments via visible indicators, and if that is the extent of their training they will come up short.

I imagine that on human targets you typically won't see where you shots land and unless the target reacts to your shot impacting their body, you may not have any feed back to know if you had any hits on target. With point or instinctive shooting, you have to totally rely on practicing enough to have faith your un-aimed shots land where you wanted them to land. Using sights may be slower, but it permits the average Joe a method to get shots on target.

As for shooting Human Targets and not seeing your hits. In a "stressful" situation, you're not going to know if you're hitting the target even if you do use sights. Things are going to be ugly.

I took an instinctive shooting class years ago. We covered our sights with black tape. Started up close, and as you build confidence, we moved further away. Targets got further away. We shot faster from a draw. We shot from behind cover. All of this was done with the sights covered. And to say I wasn't surprised by the results would be a lie. IT WORKS. And it worked rather well. This video was the final stage of the class. I'm not using my shots as a guide. I'm moving.... I'm shooting rapidly.... and if you listen to the guy at the end of the video. He will tell me that ALL MY SHOTS hit the paper plates. That is rather impressive if you ask me. The system works if you learn how, and use it.

[ideaman]

MR Quick Kill Hip shooter. Ku-Ku Could someone else hold the camera?

[Eod1]

When shooting "human" targets you don't think you are going to get feed back? Are you kidding? When u hit it I'm positive you are going to get verbal and motion feed back. I don't care what u are using as a weapon. U will know if you hit the target. This is not a video game. When i get hit with a rock I'm yelling prophanities.

[Mtbkski]

Not true. Sure sometimes you will get instant results. But there are almost just as many cases of people NOT even knowing they were shot when in a gun fight until it was over. Adrenaline is amazing stuff. Read an Article by Masaad Ayoob years ago where he talked about a bad guy taking a 12 gauge slug in the chest, he stood there and fired back at the officer that had shot him. It wasn't until the officer shot him a second time that he went down. Everyone involved in the shooting assumed the officer had missed with the first shot, till they found two holes in his torso.

[Brownie]

MR Quick Kill Hip shooter. Ku-Ku Could someone else hold the camera?

Sure, Mr. Tripod, he's available to me at all times.

[Brownie]

Not true. Sure sometimes you will get instant results. But there are almost just as many cases of people NOT even knowing they were shot when in a gun fight until it was over. Adrenaline is amazing stuff. Read an Article by Masaad Ayoob years ago where he talked about a bad guy taking a 12 gauge slug in the chest, he stood there and fired back at the officer that had shot him. It wasn't until the officer shot him a second time that he went down. Everyone involved in the shooting assumed the officer had missed with the first shot, till they found two holes in his torso.

Cite those for us, almost as many? Unlikely at best. Everyone can cite an example that's out of the norm, but that's doesn't make it the norm.

But the real crux is, whether the sights were utilized or not has no bearing on whether one sees reactions from being shot. My hit rate is roughly 92-93% with all the skills employed/trained in. It's as unlikely I'll miss as it is I won't see a reaction to being nailed.

In fact, the mozambique drill is trained for and incorporated into many training venues along with being a qualifier in the games.

[Eod1]

Have u ever seen a person take a 12 gauge round. I don't care who they are telling u this don't even take my personal experience unroll you see it for your self. Remember your adrenaline is high too. You might miss something as well but I can tell you so.eone standing still or running, when u hit them with a round traveling any speed o let's say for argumentative resons 600 fps will Chang's directions or move with the direction of the bullet at least a little if not a lot because of physics. If you don't pick up o it ,it's because you are not looking for it.

[Mtbkski]

Cite those for us, almost as many? Unlikely at best. Everyone can cite an example that's out of the norm, but that's doesn't make it the norm.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/03/nyregion/03shot.html

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2...gets-job-done/

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q...653E&FORM=VIRE


"there are almost just as many cases"
Bad choice of wording on my part. I apologize. I'm not saying bad guys don't go down with one shot. I'm saying that for you to assume they are going to is foolish. People have received multiple gunshot wounds and continue to fight. We see videos all the time of bad guys getting shot in armed robberies in stores and they run out of the store to either die on the street, or, go to the hospital to be treated. It happens. Pistols are not good man stoppers. We all know that. We all have seen and heard about it in the past. Hell, if it only happened one time, that one time is something we need to be aware of. Be it from adrenaline, or drugs, or whatever. People are shot and continue to function.

[Eod1]

You are correct. I know it's not main stream, but I train in head shots. The only way to be confident in this is to practice. 2 in the body 1 to 2 in the head. I can say for fact if you blow someone's head off it's done. When u hit them with a hydroshock in the eye socket it's over.

[Hawk]

Here you go, a 1911 with no sights on the gun whatsoever. One does NOT need sights to get shots on target. There's a LOT of shooters trying to use their sights to make hits that can't hold the groups seen shot in real time here. And people think sights are necessary to hit?

Re-read my post slowly and digest it. I'm not saying that instinctive/point shooting is for the birds. I'm saying that it requires practice and that those who do practice it need to do so without using the feed back putting holes in paper or on steel provide. In addition, most people will not put the practice in and will still rely on using their sights.

By the way, "what one man can do, another man can do" if that one man practices enough.