Philando Castile verdict not a good omen for concealed carriers

[GunLawyer001]

. . . All this guy had to do was take a couple steps back and it would have given him time to react properly. . . . .

Just how big would those steps have to be?

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[twency]

If they've announced that they're armed and have been ordered repeatedly not to reach into their pocket then yeah many would shoot.

Everyone on here can argue about this until they're blue in the face. The bottom line is if Philando would have stopped reaching in his pocket after hearing the officer REPEAT MULTIPLE TIME'S "Dont pull it out," then he'd be alive today. As much as I like this site, I despise all of the twisted and unrealistic logic from some of these members. Personally, if I'm ever pulled over; I'm going to LISTEN AND COMPLY WITH EVERY SINGLE COMMAND FROM THE OFFICER. I'll argue any disputes I have in the court of law. With that being said, I do truly feel bad for Philando and his family; this is a tragedy.

He was told not to reach for the gun. By his own description before he was shot he wasn't reaching for the gun. By his own description after he was shot he hadn't been reaching for the gun. Based on the fact that the gun was found in his pocket he did not in fact pull it out.

Castile: Sir, I have to tell you I do have a ...Yanez: OK.
Castile: ... firearm on me.
Yanez: OK
Castile: I (inaudible)
Yanez: Don't reach for it then.
Castile: I'm, I, I was reaching for ...
Yanez: Don't pull it out.
Castile: I'm not pulling it out.
Reynolds: He's not.
Yanez: Don't pull it out.
Yanez, whose hand had been near his gun, pulls out his weapon and fires seven rapid shots into the car, striking Castile five times.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/06/20/us/philando-castile-shooting-dashcam/index.html

It sounds to me like he was trying to find something else he thought he should give to the officer (maybe his MN permit to carry, since he had already voluntarily notified that he was carrying [bad idea, as it turned out]), tried to explain that he was reaching for something else, and added the clarification that he wasn't reaching for the gun.

The orders Yanez gave were to not reach for the gun. Castile could have followed those orders to the letter and still have been reaching for something else. That's a big part of the problem. The officer didn't order "show me your hands" or "hands on the steering wheel" or "hands on the dash". He ordered Castile not to reach for "it" (the gun Castile had just told him about), and it's entirely plausible under the circumstances that Castile was following those orders and did not reach for the gun. The officer gave unclear commands about what he wanted (saying "don't pull it out", when what he meant was "stop moving your hands"). He panicked when Castile didn't do what Yanez thought he asked.

Note that the other officer on the scene, watching through the passenger window, appears just as shocked as Castile and Reynolds when Yanez starts firing. He clearly did not perceive the threat that Yanez did.

[dkf]

The way it looks the autopsy report supports that Castille was not going for his gun.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/06/12...rney-says.html

Prosecutor Jeff Paulsen argued that autopsy evidence showed a bullet wound to what would have been Castile’s trigger finger, and that there was no corresponding bullet damage nor wounds in the area of Castile’s right shorts pocket, where he carried his gun.

[ArcticSplash]

I'm sure everyone would be much safer if we had unarmed traffic cops, and that criminals won't shoot unarmed cops during traffic stops.

Yeah, I'm not really appreciating all the whataboutism with completely-unrelated incidents, particularly all these that do not have a concealed carry permit holder announcing that they're armed and they have a proper license right at the beginning of a stop.

I understand "I have a weapon, I have a license" does not immunize you from a cop's actions or reactions.

But c'mon dude. This video doesn't even have a cop approaching a car.


Also, I'm not down with unarmed police. I do think P/Os who barely pass weapons tests and cannot demonstrate a high level of situational awareness should not be doing patrols and instead get sent off to other units that don't need that level of protection and that much public interaction until they can get their shit together in training. And I really do think that discipline clauses buried in FOP contracts really do need to be shredded and rewritten. Cops like to think of themselves as paramilitary but they would never want themselves subject to rules like the UCMJ, and FOP locals certainly would not want employment term and demonstration of competency linked together. That's why forces like the Philadelphia Police are stuck with rubber room units where they have to shove cops they do not dare want to risk having them interact with the public.

In larger departments like Philadelphia they send off the bad apples to plenty of accessory units (if a crap cop you know got sent off to the Civil Affairs Unit to go stand in the heat at protests, that's likely a dud that brass decided to pull off patrol). PPD also sends flunks off to the Mayberry districts like the 8th who spend most of their time taking in reports from people in the upper far Northeast who can't remember to lock their cars.

If you want an example of that, go google "Officer Frank Tepper". Department knew he had anger management issues that were explosive and IA sent him off to the farm to tend to office copy machines. The drunken lout finally decided to smoke a next door neighbor after an argument. I pass by Tepper's old house--fam was forced to liquidate it after he got sent away for first degree murder, thank god.



Imagine if you were a Sheriff or you were police brass and you had to deal with this, a screaming upset mayor, taxpayers at your throat calling for your head, and you have to answer for your cop's actions. You look at the video evidence and what the P/O did right after and your heart drops into your stomach. Mine did.

Would YOU want to get pulled over by this cop?


I sure as f___ would not.

[Justin2012]

Yeah, I'm not really appreciating all the whataboutism with completely-unrelated incidents, particularly all these that do not have a concealed carry permit holder announcing that they're armed and they have a proper license right at the beginning of a stop.

I understand "I have a weapon, I have a license" does not immunize you from a cop's actions or reactions. But c'mon dude. This video doesn't even have a cop approaching a car.

This video was in response to a suggestion that we should have unarmed traffic officers. I was only merely trying to point out that having unarmed traffic officers would likely result in having a lot of dead cops; especially in the most heavily armed society on the planet.

[Sgt.K]

He was told not to reach for the gun. By his own description before he was shot he wasn't reaching for the gun. By his own description after he was shot he hadn't been reaching for the gun. Based on the fact that the gun was found in his pocket he did not in fact pull it out.



It sounds to me like he was trying to find something else he thought he should give to the officer (maybe his MN permit to carry, since he had already voluntarily notified that he was carrying [bad idea, as it turned out]), tried to explain that he was reaching for something else, and added the clarification that he wasn't reaching for the gun.

The orders Yanez gave were to not reach for the gun. Castile could have followed those orders to the letter and still have been reaching for something else. That's a big part of the problem. The officer didn't order "show me your hands" or "hands on the steering wheel" or "hands on the dash". He ordered Castile not to reach for "it" (the gun Castile had just told him about), and it's entirely plausible under the circumstances that Castile was following those orders and did not reach for the gun. The officer gave unclear commands about what he wanted (saying "don't pull it out", when what he meant was "stop moving your hands"). He panicked when Castile didn't do what Yanez thought he asked.

Note that the other officer on the scene, watching through the passenger window, appears just as shocked as Castile and Reynolds when Yanez starts firing. He clearly did not perceive the threat that Yanez did.

I've been silent on this until now, because I hadn't yet solidified in my head what the thoughts were that I was having. This is along the lines I was thinking. Essentially a mis-communication.

I'm not going to Google it, but we've all seen the video of the man standing by the open door of his pickup at a gas station when the officer asked for his ID, so he reached into the truck to get it and took 2 to the torso for following directions. What the officer *meant* was "reach slowly with one hand into your pocket and even more slowly withdraw your ID and present it to me for investigative purposes". What he *said* was "show me your ID". What the man *heard* was "show me your ID", an instruction which he acted upon immediately, like a good sheeple. What he *didn't* hear (because nothing of the sort was stated) was "if I lose sight of your hands for even a fraction of a second I will assume you have a gun and then act how I see fit to address that assumption".

Not all legal carriers have spent the time many POOFAs have discussing these matters. Many legal carriers simply endeavor to be good guys and follow the laws, as indicated by the fact that we commit crimes at a rate 6 times less than police do, so they follow whatever instructions are given by the police - to the letter. It would never occur to many that doing so could be quite detrimental to their health.

Am I saying Castile was a model legal carrier? No, I'm with Phil on that part. But I also think twency makes a good point about flawed instructions. But I also think that - if he was as 'experienced' with roadside encounters as he seems to have been - that Castile knew fairly well what was meant.

All this is to say that I don't have a global solution to this problem. For me personally, hands will stay at 10 and 2 unless specifically asked for something, then I will explain what I am doing before I uncurl my fingers so Officer Friendly knows which hand is about to move and where it is headed, and it will then go there with agonizing (to me) slowness.

My 2¢

[ArcticSplash]

Just how big would those steps have to be?

warning range.jpg

Whoever is riding around the hood with a bolt-action .30-06 they can manage to swing around in the cab of a sedan or sports car is one badass (and talented) mu***kka.

[ArcticSplash]

This video was in response to a suggestion that we should have unarmed traffic officers. I was only merely trying to point out that having unarmed traffic officers would likely result in having a lot of dead cops; especially in the most heavily armed society on the planet.

Ahh, noted.

I was checking back up on this thread and didn't read the full scroll... I should have read closer to see where it went.

[ArcticSplash]

I'll put that in the same category as everyone with an LTCF won't harm me and anyone who carries Mexican style will.

I used to pocket-carry a lot.

Not everyone can be a RuPaul fashion queen with holsters. How many holsters does an average gun owner go through before they finally find "the one"? I'm up to 5 already and I hate all of them.

[streaker69]

The way it looks the autopsy report supports that Castille was not going for his gun.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/06/12...rney-says.html

Not exactly sure how the autopsy could make that conclusion, nor does the argument of the prosecutor make any sense in regards to that. Unless we're to assume that Yanez was actually attempting to shoot at the gun, and not center mass.