Philando Castile verdict not a good omen for concealed carriers

[brewguy]

I love the suggestion about having traffic cops be unarmed. Gonna be a lot of people lining up for that job I bet.

Perhaps that is also a good thing. Emt are not armed, fire department is not armed.

[jw34]

Perhaps that is also a good thing. Emt are not armed, fire department is not armed.

And thats why they dont roll into a scene until it's secured by the armed guys.

[RockIsland]

I fucking hate that I agree with Phil here. This man was needlessly slaughtered all because of the collective stupidity of three separate entities - the state's, the cop's, and his own.

Must Inform laws are terrible, dangerous ideas. They only lead to additional tension, and have ZERO effect on people who aren't already legally possessing a firearm in the first place.

Cops need to be able to issue direct, specific orders when presented with certain circumstances. "Put your hands on the wheel NOW" instead of "don't reach for it" would likely have prevented this.

Why did Philando think that he needed to reach into his pants AFTER informing the officer? Unless you keep your Driver's License in the holster with your firearm, there's no reason for that.

I'm shaking after having watched the video. The cop may have justifyably been found not guilty in court...but the family is going to catch a hell of a windfall.

Thread Winner!

As much as you can take from a single video; IMHO, the cop panicked and knew it, because he said fuck about 50 times after he shot him. It wasn't a, I just shot somebody fuck, it was a fuck, I just fucked up fuck.

Castille fucked up and he's dead.

His girlfriend is an idiot.

The cop's actions probably weren't criminal, but the dept did the right thing in firing him.

Castille's family probably have a great civil case against the officer.

Why was he allowed to bleed out for five minutes before they attempted first aid? Does officer safety trump his rights and obvious need for it?

[Justin2012]

I love the suggestion about having traffic cops be unarmed. Gonna be a lot of people lining up for that job I bet.

I'm sure everyone would be much safer if we had unarmed traffic cops, and that criminals won't shoot unarmed cops during traffic stops.

[twency]

I lean toward this interpretation, which I realize plenty of respectable folks here disagree with (or think it oversimplifies the situation):

http://reason.com/blog/2017/06/21/ph...ws-a-cop-who-p

Even if Yanez had good reason to fear Castile, Noble said, he could have addressed the threat he perceived by instructing the driver to put his hands on the dashboard, which he never did. Yanez also could haver stepped back from the car window to the area between the front and back seats, which would have given him more space and time to react. Yanez did not take those precautions because he was not thinking clearly. Watching the dashcam video, which shows a calm exchange escalating into gunfire in just a few seconds, you see a man in full-blown panic.

Yanez's lawyers cited that short time span as a reason to cut him some slack: Reacting in the heat of the moment to what he perceived as a deadly threat, Yanez did what he thought was necessary to protect himself. (The day after the shooting, Yanez also claimed he had been thinking about his partner, who can be seen pulling back from the car in fear and surprise as Yanez fires seven rounds; Reynolds, who was nearly hit by one of those bullets; and her 4-year-old girl, who was sitting in the backseat and probably did not perceive Yanez as protecting her.) If in retrospect Castile did not actually pose a threat (although Yanez insisted that he did), why punish the officer for making the wrong split-second decision in what he thought was a life-or-death situation?

That is the sort of reasoning that often gets cops off the hook even in the rare cases where their use of force leads to criminal charges. It is mistaken in this case because Yanez, like the cops who killed Tamir Rice and Zachary Hammond, created the perceived emergency that supposedly justified the use of deadly force. By making erroneous assumptions and failing to take obvious precautions, he put himself in a position where he thought he had no choice but to kill an innocent man who was guilty of nothing but exercising his Second Amendment rights.

In Brown v. United States the SCOTUS found that "detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife." However in the case of Castile there was no "uplifted knife" (drawn gun, in this case).

The crisis was of the police officer's own making. He seems to have jumped to the conclusion that Castile's statement that he was in possession of a firearm was a threat. Looking at Castile's actions through the lens of elevated threat (perhaps magnified by prejudices about Castile's skin color) the officer primed himself to see almost anything Castile did as an attack in progress.

[GunLawyer001]

. . .
The crisis was of the police officer's own making. He seems to have jumped to the conclusion that Castile's statement that he was in possession of a firearm was a threat. Looking at Castile's actions through the lens of elevated threat (perhaps magnified by prejudices about Castile's skin color) the officer primed himself to see almost anything Castile did as an attack in progress.

The video shows that the cop was OK with the gun being present, he just didn't want the dead guy grabbing it and putting it into play. What the cop clearly viewed as a threat was NOT Philando's possession of a firearm, it was Philando ignoring his commands and grabbing something from where he'd likely keep the gun that he had just announced.

What I see as likely, is that if Philando had obeyed the cop's commands and stopped moving, he'd be alive today. Cops who are NOT alarmed by citizens reaching for stuff despite shouted commands, get killed. See the videos I posted earlier.

Philando's traffic history shows that he's not interested in doing what others tell him to do, like have a muffler, or stop driving after they suspended his license. I don't think that Philando particularly cared if he scared the cop, or what the cop was telling him to do. It was reasonable for Philando to want to pull out his license and paperwork, because the cop asked for it. It was unreasonable for him to keep moving his hands while the cop was screaming at him to stop.

I assume that Philando had a gun present, otherwise Philando would have no reason to mention it. That's a reasonable assumption.

We don't pay cops to run away from problems, we don't train them to run away when a suspect pulls a gun. That's like demanding that homeowners retreat when armed invaders bust in your window; Americans deal with problems, we don't flee, because we're not French.

[donotknowme]

The cop didn't tell Castile to stop moving did he? He said don't pull it out.

9:05:55 – 9:06:02 p.m. — Yanez said “Okay, don’t reach for it, then.” Castile responded: “I’m… I’m … [inaudible] reaching…,” before being again interrupted by Yanez, who said “Don’t pull it out.” Castile responded, “I’m not pulling it out,” and Reynolds said, “He’s not pulling it out.”

Yanez screamed: “Don’t pull it out,” and pulled his gun with his right hand. Yanez fired seven shots in the direction of Castile in rapid succession. The seventh shot was fired at 9:06:02 p.m. Kauser did not touch or remove his gun.

[eyecanshoot]

The video shows that the cop was OK with the gun being present, he just didn't want the dead guy grabbing it and putting it into play. What the cop clearly viewed as a threat was NOT Philando's possession of a firearm, it was Philando ignoring his commands and grabbing something from where he'd likely keep the gun that he had just announced.

What I see as likely, is that if Philando had obeyed the cop's commands and stopped moving, he'd be alive today. Cops who are NOT alarmed by citizens reaching for stuff despite shouted commands, get killed. See the videos I posted earlier.

Philando's traffic history shows that he's not interested in doing what others tell him to do, like have a muffler, or stop driving after they suspended his license. I don't think that Philando particularly cared if he scared the cop, or what the cop was telling him to do. It was reasonable for Philando to want to pull out his license and paperwork, because the cop asked for it. It was unreasonable for him to keep moving his hands while the cop was screaming at him to stop.

I assume that Philando had a gun present, otherwise Philando would have no reason to mention it. That's a reasonable assumption.

We don't pay cops to run away from problems, we don't train them to run away when a suspect pulls a gun. That's like demanding that homeowners retreat when armed invaders bust in your window; Americans deal with problems, we don't flee, because we're not French.

Can you please give one example where the person being pulled over has ever voluntarily notified the officer about having a gun before attempting to outdraw the officer? I bet the odds of this ever happening are pretty much nonexistent.

[Mitch10mm]

So he should have just "kept the faith"?
"Don't reach for it" and he ignores the command. Too bad. I tend to obey officers. I'll voice my displeasure but will not be seen as a threat. Puff my chest and get shot? Nah.

[Carson]

Can you please give one example where the person being pulled over has ever voluntarily notified the officer about having a gun before attempting to outdraw the officer? I bet the odds of this ever happening are pretty much nonexistent.

I'll put that in the same category as everyone with an LTCF won't harm me and anyone who carries Mexican style will.