DA/SA question for LEOs

[TonyF]

Sights off target de-cock is what I was taught, is what every instructor from whom I've ever attended a class has also taught, and is what I teach. Same goes for SA's (1911's and M&P's with thumb safeties, etc.) meaning sights off target, safety engaged.

Simply stated the firearm should never be in "fire" mode at low ready. Firearms with passive safeties have an inherent advantage (glock's, etc.) and no I am not endorsing striker fired handguns, just stating the obvious in this specific circumstance.

This is especially true when moving as you indicated in the specific CoF you mention.

I would agree with you in principle that the video in question is probably not the best example and would agree that unless she had been engaging the threat, she was probably in DA mode.

"NEVER?"

Absolutes in a written form are usually not optimal.......

If I have drawn in a situation where the threat is not responding to the previous attempts to resolve the issue... My gun WILL be in a fire mode. At My side, unholstered, transitioning into low ready, pointed at the threat, I will be a finger movement away from firing.

SA DA, revolver, whatever I an carrying... matters not.

I will not handicap my chances at surviving the encounter.

The whole point of the Low Ready position is safe muzzle control when an immediate threat is not visible or available. The underlying principle is that there is no time penalty in disengaging the manual safety of a SA (e.g. 1911) going from Low Ready to "Sights On Target" which is why it does not impede ones chances of survival. Same goes for striker fired weapons with passive safety systems.

In the case of a DA / SA autoloader, the entire "safety" premise of the DA / SA system is the heavy first trigger press. Thus it is a matter of achieving the requisite skill level with the DA trigger press (which does indeed require a steeper learning curve to master).

I hope this helps explain "why".

[scruff]

The whole point of the Low Ready position is safe muzzle control when an immediate threat is not visible or available. The underlying principle is that there is no time penalty in disengaging the manual safety of a SA (e.g. 1911) going from Low Ready to "Sights On Target" which is why it does not impede ones chances of survival. Same goes for striker fired weapons with passive safety systems.

In the case of a DA / SA autoloader, the entire "safety" premise of the DA / SA system is the heavy first trigger press. Thus it is a matter of achieving the requisite skill level with the DA trigger press (which does indeed require a steeper learning curve to master).

I hope this helps explain "why".

I understand that the rule is well-intentioned, but I guess it's a matter of perspective. I appreciate the safety of the 10-lb pull when I'm handling it. Nobody ever talks about "Sig leg". And I've trained enough that I don't think I'm paying much of a penalty in accuracy on the first shot. My problem is with the idea that my 4.5 lb trigger is significantly less safe than a 5 or 5.5-lb trigger, especially for a trained shooter who knows to keep his finger off the trigger when the sights are off the target.

Just curious, what would you have someone do in class with a DA/SA with no decocker? And what about a combined decocker/safety - do they need to decock AND put it on safe? After all, "safer" is not always better, witness the NYC 12-lb DAO. There are always compromises between safety, speed, accuracy, and complexity, and that's the crux of the argument here - it's not necessarily black and white, but which compromise is most reasonable.

[MedicCop]

The whole point of the Low Ready position is safe muzzle control when an immediate threat is not visible or available. The underlying principle is that there is no time penalty in disengaging the manual safety of a SA (e.g. 1911) going from Low Ready to "Sights On Target" which is why it does not impede ones chances of survival. Same goes for striker fired weapons with passive safety systems.

In the case of a DA / SA autoloader, the entire "safety" premise of the DA / SA system is the heavy first trigger press. Thus it is a matter of achieving the requisite skill level with the DA trigger press (which does indeed require a steeper learning curve to master).

I hope this helps explain "why".

There's a huge difference between low ready BEFORE you've fired a shot, and low ready AFTER you've fired shots. If I've fired at an adversary, there is NO WAY I would de-cock my firearm unless I was reholstering it.

Obviously I am not talking about movement or other variables, but if I am static and covering a threat at the low ready that I have already fired shots at, it goes against logic to decock my firearm.

Furthermore, decocking some DA/SA pistols (such as SIG's) does not make the pistol 'safe'.

I reiterate my point that it creates a HUGE training scar to ingrain in shooters' subconscious to decock immediately after firing.

[TonyF]

My problem is with the idea that my 4.5 lb trigger is significantly less safe than a 5 or 5.5-lb trigger, especially for a trained shooter who knows to keep his finger off the trigger when the sights are off the target.

It isn't. It is about programming human behavior in high stress situations. Two ways of doing things vs. one way of doing things. Don't fail to recognize that adrenaline will still be flowing "after the smoke clears". Those are moments when any one of us can make a mistake.

Just curious, what would you have someone do in class with a DA/SA with no decocker? And what about a combined decocker/safety - do they need to decock AND put it on safe? After all, "safer" is not always better, witness the NYC 12-lb DAO. There are always compromises between safety, speed, accuracy, and complexity, and that's the crux of the argument here - it's not necessarily black and white, but which compromise is most reasonable.

CZ's, etc.? My recommendation is to use them as a SA and apply the safety.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind. Just trying to provide the underlying details to your original post.

[TonyF]

There's a huge difference between low ready BEFORE you've fired a shot, and low ready AFTER you've fired shots. If I've fired at an adversary, there is NO WAY I would de-cock my firearm unless I was reholstering it.

Obviously I am not talking about movement or other variables, but if I am static and covering a threat at the low ready that I have already fired shots at, it goes against logic to decock my firearm.

Furthermore, decocking some DA/SA pistols (such as SIG's) does not make the pistol 'safe'.

I reiterate my point that it creates a HUGE training scar to ingrain in shooters' subconscious to decock immediately after firing.

I would not argue that decocking a DA/SA auto "makes it safe". It does however place the firearm in a different "mode" and that is the essence of this discussion. A striker fired weapon has a passive system "engaged" while covering a threat with the trigger finger indexed along the frame. No time penalty to disengage an engaged SA thumb safety while covering a threat if follow up shots are necessary. No such "barrier" exists with the DA / SA auto with the hammer cocked in SA mode.

In all fairness I could make the same "training scar" claim about your method.

I am not trying to change anyone's mind. Just trying to provide the underlying details to the OP for the sake of this discussion.

[scruff]

Hey Berncly, your mailbox is full. How about pulling the delete trigger?

[markshere2]

The whole point of the Low Ready position is safe muzzle control when an immediate threat is not visible or available. The underlying principle is that there is no time penalty in disengaging the manual safety of a SA (e.g. 1911) going from Low Ready to "Sights On Target" which is why it does not impede ones chances of survival. Same goes for striker fired weapons with passive safety systems.

In the case of a DA / SA autoloader, the entire "safety" premise of the DA / SA system is the heavy first trigger press. Thus it is a matter of achieving the requisite skill level with the DA trigger press (which does indeed require a steeper learning curve to master).

I hope this helps explain "why".

We disagree on the "whole point" of low ready.

Low ready is a position, not a circumstance.

That position is useful under several circumstances.

Circumstances dictate whether or not I have safety on or off and if I cock a revolver and if I decock back to DA.

I am not LEO . I am not gonna clear a building looking for a bad guy. If I am at low ready, it's probably a point on the force continuum as I try to resolve a self defense situation.

[Berncly]

Hey Berncly, your mailbox is full. How about pulling the delete trigger?

Thanks for the heads up.
Done.

[TonyF]

We disagree on the "whole point" of low ready.

Low ready is a position, not a circumstance.

That position is useful under several circumstances.

Circumstances dictate whether or not I have safety on or off and if I cock a revolver and if I decock back to DA.

I am not LEO . I am not gonna clear a building looking for a bad guy. If I am at low ready, it's probably a point on the force continuum as I try to resolve a self defense situation.

I guess I see it differently as well. I do believe circumstances dictate "positions". Engaging a threat I will be in the fire position, in a CQB search environment I will have the pistol at the retention position and if a threat is down or not visible / available the pistol will be at the low ready position, etc.

This was a great topic and a good discussion.