DA/SA question for LEOs

[scruff]

I caught the instructors together before class yesterday to talk about it. Every single one of them said that's the rule and it's always been the rule - decock as soon as the sights come off the target. They brought up the example of the Las Vegas lady cop that nearly shot a proned-out suspect because she didn't decock - no matter that her finger was on the trigger.



I was running a course later in the day. moving between stacks of barrels, addressing multiple targets from different shooting positions, and an instructor was reminding me to decock. So that's that - this is the way these classes are going to be.


ETA: I wonder if that video is even a valid example. Was the gun really in SA? The only way it would be is if she had just been in a gunfight. If she just drew it from the holster, it would still be in DA.

[Berncly]

I caught the instructors together before class yesterday to talk about it. Every single one of them said that's the rule and it's always been the rule - decock as soon as the sights come off the target. They brought up the example of the Las Vegas lady cop that nearly shot a proned-out suspect because she didn't decock - no matter that her finger was on the trigger.
I was running a course later in the day. moving between stacks of barrels, addressing multiple targets from different shooting positions, and an instructor was reminding me to decock. So that's that - this is the way these classes are going to be.
ETA: I wonder if that video is even a valid example. Was the gun really in SA? The only way it would be is if she had just been in a gunfight. If she just drew it from the holster, it would still be in DA.

Well there's your answer.
Suspect safety outweighs officer firearm effectiveness.
This is in agreement with the NY heavy 12 pound DAO trigger pull you mentioned previously.

You saw other participants using DAO Glocks and XDs.
Your DA/SA P226 is a great gun, but as a duty weapon you may just want to default to a DAO like everyone else.
Maybe not ideal, but very practical.
From a LEO liability perspective, you may be doing yourself a disservice by opting for a DA/SA.
While under pressure, you would be better served using equipment that limits the possibility of a negligent discharge.

I agree that a 12 pound DAO is excessive, but a 5 to 8 pound DAO is reasonable and practical.
My duty issue was an 8 pound DAO, and I became very comfortable with it after 100 hours on the range.
Maybe not as comfortable as a 5.5 pound DAO Glock trigger pull, but certainly comfortable enough to be very effective.

You don't want to train contrary to your preference or inclination, since it creates the possibility of mental confusion under pressure.
If it was me, I would negate the issue entirely by switching to a Glock or other solid DAO for the rest of the training and duty usage.

[Orive 8]

Here's a question for all you LEO's who have ever qualified with a DA/SA. When shooting a qualifier, did your department make you decock when coming to low ready in the middle of a string of fire?

Worked for an agency with 125 officers, we issued SIG pisols; officer's choice of P220 .45, P226 9mm, P228 9mm, or P225 9mm. Later on the 228 and 225 were replaced by 229 and 239 in 9mm. All pistols were DA/SA. I was an instructor for my agency and SIG armorer.

We did not make it mandatory for the user to decock when returning to a ready or to even move with the gun in hand. The only time you HAD to decock your weapon was prior to re-holstering the weapon.

[unclejumbo]

Well there's your answer.
Suspect safety outweighs officer firearm effectiveness.
This is in agreement with the NY heavy 12 pound DAO trigger pull you mentioned previously.

You saw other participants using DAO Glocks and XDs.
Your DA/SA P226 is a great gun, but as a duty weapon you may just want to default to a DAO like everyone else.
Maybe not ideal, but very practical.
From a LEO liability perspective, you may be doing yourself a disservice by opting for a DA/SA.
While under pressure, you would be better served using equipment that limits the possibility of a negligent discharge.

I agree that a 12 pound DAO is excessive, but a 5 to 8 pound DAO is reasonable and practical.
My duty issue was an 8 pound DAO, and I became very comfortable with it after 100 hours on the range.
Maybe not as comfortable as a 5.5 pound DAO Glock trigger pull, but certainly comfortable enough to be very effective.

You don't want to train contrary to your preference or inclination, since it creates the possibility of mental confusion under pressure.
If it was me, I would negate the issue entirely by switching to a Glock or other solid DAO for the rest of the training and duty usage.

The stupidity of it is that a Glock, or S&W M&P or a Springfield XD or any other striker fired pistol has a trigger pull that is comparable to the single action trigger pull of a Sig DA/SA. We had DAOs for a time in our Beretta 96D which was a long and relatively heavy trigger pull. Far different than the Glocks we were subsequently issued.

If they want a heavy trigger put then they're going to have to ban all striker fired guns unless modified with a NY trigger. Both Sigs in single action and striker fired guns have the triggers running between 4.5 and 5.5 pounds in real world testing.

More importantly, what are they doing with 1911s which have short, relatively light triggers? Safety on at lowered ready? Decocking? If not, their training is retarded and you're welcome to tell them a PSP firearms instructor said so.

[MedicCop]

I think the purpose behind decocking between strings is that each string is considered a separate engagement, and as such, the first shot would be DA. It, however, creates mindset issues by forcing the shooter to decock immediately upon firing the prescribed number of rounds.

[unclejumbo]

I think the purpose behind decocking between strings is that each string is considered a separate engagement, and as such, the first shot would be DA. It, however, creates mindset issues by forcing the shooter to decock immediately upon firing the prescribed number of rounds.

I don't doubt that some nitwit came up with the idea and thought it was a good one. The problem that you and most other professionals recognize is one of muscle memory. Until a shooter is ready to holster because it's safe to do so, he shouldn't be fucking around with a decocker.

Men have died due to piss poor training practices. It's why we let our $20 or $40 mags hit the ground regardless of surface rather than catch them and put them in a pocket. We've all heard the story of the cop that was killed while reloading. He had a partially loaded cylinder and his casings in his pocket because that's what they did at the range.

[t1066]

I don't doubt that some nitwit came up with the idea and thought it was a good one. The problem that you and most other professionals recognize is one of muscle memory. Until a shooter is ready to holster because it's safe to do so, he shouldn't be fucking around with a decocker.

Men have died due to piss poor training practices. It's why we let our $20 or $40 mags hit the ground regardless of surface rather than catch them and put them in a pocket. We've all heard the story of the cop that was killed while reloading. He had a partially loaded cylinder and his casings in his pocket because that's what they did at the range.

Do you feel like showing up at a PCCD meeting sometime in the future to point this out? I'd cover $20 of your gas if you do.

I don't know if it will do any good, but you've got the background to make the point.

[Berncly]

The stupidity of it is that a Glock, or S&W M&P or a Springfield XD or any other striker fired pistol has a trigger pull that is comparable to the single action trigger pull of a Sig DA/SA. We had DAOs for a time in our Beretta 96D which was a long and relatively heavy trigger pull. Far different than the Glocks we were subsequently issued.
If they want a heavy trigger put then they're going to have to ban all striker fired guns unless modified with a NY trigger. Both Sigs in single action and striker fired guns have the triggers running between 4.5 and 5.5 pounds in real world testing.
More importantly, what are they doing with 1911s which have short, relatively light triggers? Safety on at lowered ready? Decocking? If not, their training is retarded and you're welcome to tell them a PSP firearms instructor said so.

Noted.
I have no experience with the Sig trigger pull.
I guess my focus would be on eliminating his now problematic mental step of decocking.
The trigger pull weight may be irrelevant, but he is forced to deal with his situation as is, which is that they are making him decock.
The idea of going through duty training knowing I would try to ignore it while on actual duty would make me uncomfortable.
It is a liability to his performance under pressure, and I would eliminate the unnecessary mental conflict.
It would be wise for him to either entirely commit to their decocking methodology, or eliminate the problem with a DAO.

[unclejumbo]

Do you feel like showing up at a PCCD meeting sometime in the future to point this out? I'd cover $20 of your gas if you do.

I don't know if it will do any good, but you've got the background to make the point.

I could do that. Or I could write a letter addressing a glaring training deficiency I've been made aware of. You're right about it being iffy as to whether it would do any good. I've found that idiots that come up with such ideas are incapable of seeing the error of their ways.

I wonder how they handle Berettas. Decock and leave the safety on or decock and take the safety off?

[TonyF]

I caught the instructors together before class yesterday to talk about it. Every single one of them said that's the rule and it's always been the rule - decock as soon as the sights come off the target. They brought up the example of the Las Vegas lady cop that nearly shot a proned-out suspect because she didn't decock - no matter that her finger was on the trigger.

I was running a course later in the day. moving between stacks of barrels, addressing multiple targets from different shooting positions, and an instructor was reminding me to decock. So that's that - this is the way these classes are going to be.


ETA: I wonder if that video is even a valid example. Was the gun really in SA? The only way it would be is if she had just been in a gunfight. If she just drew it from the holster, it would still be in DA.

Sights off target de-cock is what I was taught, is what every instructor from whom I've ever attended a class has also taught, and is what I teach. Same goes for SA's (1911's and M&P's with thumb safeties, etc.) meaning sights off target, safety engaged.

Simply stated the firearm should never be in "fire" mode at low ready. Firearms with passive safeties have an inherent advantage (glock's, etc.) and no I am not endorsing striker fired handguns, just stating the obvious in this specific circumstance.

This is especially true when moving as you indicated in the specific CoF you mention.

I would agree with you in principle that the video in question is probably not the best example and would agree that unless she had been engaging the threat, she was probably in DA mode.