Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Buying firearms in PA as a weekend/summer resident of PA

    Quote Originally Posted by sorvanetzsorv View Post
    <snip>...

    I understand that it is an individual decision of every FFL what kind of transactions they are willing to execute. They are perfectly within their right to decide not to deal with weekend/summer residents of PA. It is possible that this decision is rationalized by the consideration that a relatively small number of such firearms buyers would not justify the extra effort associated with learning rarely used provisions of the law.

    <snip>
    OP - your first post was absolutely correct - assuming you maintain a "home" for yourself in Pa then, for the narrow purposes of the FEDERAL firearms laws (18 USC Ch 44), you are indeed considered as a Pa resident while you are in residence there. Additionally there is no Pa impediment for your purchase regardless of your legal out-of-state residency.

    That said, your closing statement above aptly states the conundrum in that few FFLs are willing to risk engaging in such a transaction for fear of later disapproval of the transaction by his licensing authorities. Assuming you are intent on purchasing a handgun then you are pretty much forced into using an FFL under Pa law (18 Pa CS 6111(c)). FWIW private party sale of longarms between Pa residents while in Pa are not prohibited by either Federal or state law.
    Last edited by tl_3237; March 31st, 2017 at 11:17 AM.
    IANAL

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Buying firearms in PA as a weekend/summer resident of PA

    My understanding of the law and dealing with it while moving around as a military member.

    You can only be a LEGAL resident of one state.. usually the state that issued your drivers license..
    also why you cannot legally have more than one valid drivers license

    I would guess if you did 6 month here and 6 month there you could pick your favored state.. but most lawyers would tell you that the state where you have more interests in (primary residence, live the majority of time) is where you should register.. ie you own a seasonal cottage in PA, but own a primary residence and work in NY you should register in NY.

    If you walk into a PA FFL and drop an out of state (NJ or NY or MA) Drivers License as ID they would be a damn fool to sell you a firearm based on your argument.

    IANAL either
    Retired US Army
    NRA Life Member, GOA, USCCA
    "Artificial intelligence is no match for Natural Stupidity"

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Buying firearms in PA as a weekend/summer resident of PA

    Pennsylvania FFLs will only sell firearms (including the handing over) to Pennsylvania residents.

    Yes, federal law states one may maintain more than one residence, including one in another state, but...

    Title 4, Pa. Code defines a "resident" as the following:

    95.2. Residence requirements. (a) Resident defined. A resident is a person who resides, and who has manifested the intent to continue to reside in this Commonwealth or a former resident of this Commonwealth who meets the criteria in paragraph (2)(i) or (ii).
    (1) Evidence of intent to continue to reside in this Commonwealth includes the following:
    (i) Rent, lease or purchase of a property which the applicant has made a primary residence in this Commonwealth.
    (ii) Payment of State and local taxes.
    (iii) Registration of personal property, such as bank accounts, stocks, and bonds and automobiles within this Commonwealth.
    (iv) Possession of a current Pennsylvania driver’s license.
    (v) Current registration to vote in this Commonwealth.
    (2) Former residents of this Commonwealth who relocated out-of-State for academic or employment purposes, shall establish Pennsylvania residency within 6 months of beginning employment in the classified service and shall have done one of the following:
    (i) Graduated from a public, private or nonpublic secondary school in this Commonwealth within 5 years of applying for a position in the classified service.
    (ii) Attended a public, private or nonpublic school in this Commonwealth at least 80% of the time while enrolled in grades one through twelve and attended the school within 5 years of applying for a position in the classified service.
    Title 22, Pa. Code does similar:


    35.29b. Commonwealth residency. (a) Domicile is the place where one intends to and does, in fact, permanently reside. In order to establish Commonwealth residency, the following presumptions shall be considered along with documentary evidence or statements from disinterested persons, or both:
    (1) Continuous residence in this Commonwealth for a period of 12 months prior to registration as a student. A student may rebut this presumption by convincing evidence.
    (2) A noncitizen shall have taken formal action toward becoming a citizen or shall have been admitted to the United States on an Immigrant Visa.
    (3) A minor, under the age of 18, shall be presumed to have the domicile of parents or guardian. A minor may prove emancipation and independent domicile through convincing evidence.
    (4) A United States government employe or a member of the armed forces who was domiciled in this Commonwealth immediately preceding entry into government service, and who continuously maintained legal residence in this Commonwealth, shall be presumed to have domicile. Others in government service may, by convincing evidence, establish domicile.
    (b) Domicile may not be established for a student receiving a scholarship or grant dependent upon domicile from another state.
    (c) Examples of factors which may provide convincing evidence include the following:
    (1) Lease or purchase of a permanent independent residence.
    (2) Payment of appropriate State and local taxes. Special attention shall be given to payment of Commonwealth taxes on income earned during periods of temporary absence from this Commonwealth.
    (3) Transfer of bank accounts, stock, automobile and other registered property to this Commonwealth.
    (4) Pennsylvania driver’s license.
    (5) Agreement for permanent full-time employment in this Commonwealth.
    (6) Membership in Commonwealth social, civic, political, athletic and religious organizations.
    (7) Registration to vote in this Commonwealth.
    (8) Statement of intention to reside indefinitely in this Commonwealth.
    (9) Statement from the parents or guardian of a minor setting forth facts to establish the financial independence and separate residence of the minor.
    (d) Cases shall be decided on the basis of facts submitted, with qualitative rather than quantitative emphasis. No given number of factors may be required for domicile, since the determination in each case is one of the subjective intention of the student to reside indefinitely in this Commonwealth.
    (e) A student may challenge his residency classification by filing a written petition with the officer or committee designated to consider such challenges at the college.
    (f) If the student is not satisfied with the decision made by the officer or committee in response to the challenge, the student may take a written appeal to the office of the Secretary of Education, 333 Market Street, Harrisburg, Pennsylvania 17126-0333. The decision of the Secretary on the challenge is final.
    Bottom line, although one might try to apply federal opinions, one would probably need some sort of determination from a Pennsylvania court of record that an out-of-stater with a Pennsylvania vacation home or hunting camp meets the definition of being a Pennsylvania resident.

    States do not quibble about the technical difference between "domicile" and "residence." As far as states are concerned, they are one and the same.
    Last edited by Statkowski; March 31st, 2017 at 05:02 PM.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Buying firearms in PA as a weekend/summer resident of PA

    I'm not going to argue but tell you my experiences with the PSP as a FFL. If a person owns a residence in PA (pays all the required homeowner property taxes) and owns a residence in another state (and pays all the required homeowner property taxes), when they are in residence in PA, they are considered a PA resident for the purposes of buying a handgun ACCORDING TO THE PSP FIREARMS UNIT (the folks that run the PICS).

    I have 3 customers that are part time PA residents, and part time other state residents (not NY, NJ, MD or DE however) and I have absolutely no problems running the PICS on them even though their DL's are from other states. I just call in and talk to a PICS operator, tell them the situation, they ask me if I was provided with a copy of the property tax statements (I am each time and those get attached to the 4473 and SP4-113). They then get all the rest of the info, including the DL number, run the background check and give me the approval number. I have NEVER been told that they cannot buy a handgun under these circumstances. I did the first one about 10 years ago and the last time was 2 months ago.

    When I did the first one, when the gentleman approached me to ask about doing this, I called the PSP Firearms Unit to find out what to do. They told me to just have a copy of the CURRENT property tax forms and talk to a PICS operator when ready to do the BGC. Everything went smoothly.

    That said, these people were not from states that have draconian gun laws so I don't know what the PSP would say about someone from NJ, NY, or MD. When that time comes, I'll find out
    Last edited by Xringshooter; March 31st, 2017 at 06:42 PM.
    Ron USAF Ret E-8 FFL01/SOT3 NRA Benefactor Member

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Buying firearms in PA as a weekend/summer resident of PA

    Ron (and others), I learn something new every day, or at least try to. Thank you for your input.

    You'll note I did not include any Title 18, Pa. Code definition of "resident" in my previous posting. I couldn't find any. Perhaps the definition of "resident" changes from chapter to chapter (isn't that wrong?).

    So, based on Ron's input one can purchase, but, also based on what Ron wrote, could one get an LTCF based on such residency?

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Buying firearms in PA as a weekend/summer resident of PA

    Quote Originally Posted by Statkowski View Post
    Ron (and others), I learn something new every day, or at least try to. Thank you for your input.

    You'll note I did not include any Title 18, Pa. Code definition of "resident" in my previous posting. I couldn't find any. Perhaps the definition of "resident" changes from chapter to chapter (isn't that wrong?).

    So, based on Ron's input one can purchase, but, also based on what Ron wrote, could one get an LTCF based on such residency?
    I'm not aware of any Pa statute that requires a purchaser to be a Pa resident. Pa's definition of resident is moot because Pa law does not prohibit transfers to non-residents.

    In the absence of any applicable state law, the only controlling law regarding residency of principals to a transfer is FEDERAL law (18 USC 922) and, as such, the definition in 27 CFR 478.11 is dispositive for transfers occurring in Pa
    Last edited by tl_3237; April 6th, 2017 at 07:24 PM.
    IANAL

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Buying firearms in PA as a weekend/summer resident of PA

    Quote Originally Posted by tl_3237 View Post
    I'm not aware of any Pa statute that requires a purchaser to be a Pa resident. Pa's definition of resident is moot because Pa law does not prohibit transfers to non-residents.

    In the absence of any applicable state law ,the only controlling law regarding residency of principles to a transfer is FEDERAL law (18 USC 922) and, as such, the definition in 27 CFR 478.11 is dispositive transfers occurring in Pa
    All this debate on the 'law' doesn't much change the practical fact that with a draconian ATF ready to pounce on FFL's for (real or not) offenses, I'd be surprised to find one willing to sell to a "resident" (by which I mean which Driver's License are you presenting) of an anti-gun state at all. Much as I wish otherwise, I haven't seen that 'reined in' by a Trump administration as of yet... So you can cite statute as much as you like, and you might even be technically, legally correct. But I'd be going with "what's the ID I've got attached to this transaction?" as definitive. As I said before, I'd not risk it were I an FFL. Maybe some gun-shop over near New Hope with a big component of "my PA country house" gentry customers would find it worthwhile. But I think most PA FFL's aren't going to jeopardize the 98%+ of their business selling to 'official' PA residents for this.

    Yes, I know that the likelihood is you're simply selling a gun to some dude who wants to have some fun shooting on his PA "country estate" property. But do YOU want risk being the guy who sold the weapon here that was used for some nefarious act in gun-unfriendly state X? You gonna feel all safe and comfy pointing at statutes in that case?

    Put another way, I think this thread could be of more practical use to the OP with suggestions for any 'out of state' friendly FFL's we know (or not), versus continuing to debate the legal semantics and/or issuing opinions about 'squatters' with weekend/summer homes here.
    Last edited by KCJones; March 31st, 2017 at 07:56 PM.
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" - Ben Franklin.

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Buying firearms in PA as a weekend/summer resident of PA

    Quote Originally Posted by KCJones View Post
    All this debate on the 'law' doesn't much change the practical fact that with a draconian ATF ready to pounce on FFL's for (real or not) offenses, I'd be surprised to find one willing to sell to a "resident" (by which I mean which Driver's License are you presenting) of an anti-gun state at all. Much as I wish otherwise, I haven't seen that 'reined in' by a Trump administration as of yet... So you can cite statute as much as you like, and you might even be technically, legally correct. But I'd be going with "what's the ID I've got attached to this transaction?" as definitive. As I said before, I'd not risk it were I an FFL. Maybe some gun-shop over near New Hope with a big component of "my PA country house" gentry customers would find it worthwhile. But I think most PA FFL's aren't going to jeopardize the 98%+ of their business selling to 'official' PA residents for this.

    Yes, I know that the likelihood is you're simply selling a gun to some dude who wants to have some fun shooting on his PA "country estate" property. But do YOU want risk being the guy who sold the weapon here that was used for some nefarious act in gun-unfriendly state X? You gonna feel all safe and comfy pointing at statutes in that case?

    Put another way, I think this thread could be of more practical use to the OP with suggestions for any 'out of state' friendly FFL's we know (or not), versus continuing to debate the legal semantics and/or issuing opinions about 'squatters' with weekend/summer homes here.
    Sorry if you feel that the discussion of the law is of no use - I am of the diametrically opposite opinion. But, by all means, if you or anyone else knows of an FFL that will sell to someone like the OP, post away!

    Just for curiosity - how does
    a "resident" (by which I mean which Driver's License are you presenting)
    deal with active military stationed in Pa with DLs from places like NJ? 18 USC 921(a)(35)(b) - oops-sorry there I go again with those pesky laws.
    Last edited by tl_3237; March 31st, 2017 at 08:14 PM.
    IANAL

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Buying firearms in PA as a weekend/summer resident of PA

    Sorry if you feel that the discussion of the law is of no use - I am of the diametrically opposite opinion.

    Opinions differ and like the old saying says: 'everyone has one'... I don't think it's of NO use. I find it intellectually stimulating, in fact. I also find it of little -practical- use since I doubt any of it will suddenly make some PA FFL decide to sell guns to someone who technically 'resides' here part of the time but doesn't have any ID to prove it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tl_3237 View Post
    But, by all means, if you or anyone else knows of an FFL that will sell to someone like the OP, post away!
    We certainly agree on that. That would be very helpful and useful. I don't, as it happens, know any to suggest.

    Just for curiosity - how does
    deal with active military stationed in Pa with DLs from places like NJ? 18 USC 921(35)(b) - oops-sorry there I go again with those pesky laws.
    No idea. But I'm quite sure that active military stationed in PA are a very different thing than some executive working/living in NY, NJ, MD and with a 'weekend house' or 'country property' here, and ought to be treated differently. Personally I'm a fan of national 'constitutional carry' that would cover all of the above and mitigate the need to have these dialogues. But thus far, "you can't always get what you want."
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" - Ben Franklin.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Buying firearms in PA as a weekend/summer resident of PA

    Can the OP even take their firearm back to their "other" state? Depending on where you live that may be a problem.............If you need a permit just to possess a firearm it might be easier to jump thru the hoops and buy it there. It might not be legal to take it home to a shithole state.

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