Vehicle stop by a LEO yesterday (A "duty to inform" discussion)

**ChamberedRound** · September 8th, 2008, 10:46 AM

Long setup on this one, so bear with me.

Was pulled over as I passed by a checkpoint setup for the BS "Click it or ticket" budget-balancing campaign yesterday. Had the wife and kids in the truck, was coming home from the landscaping nursery with a tree. Also had a case of beer on the front seat as I was headed to my neighbor's when I got home to watch the games.

He told me I was doing 55.7 in a 40; I didn't argue, just simply stated that I knew I was going faster than 40, but that I didn't think I was going 55. I honestly don't think I was going that fast, as I had the family in the truck and a tree in the back which I didn't want to lose all its leaves. But, I acquiesced as I admit that I wasn't 100% sure. He wrote me for 45 in a 40, no points, etc. He "cut me a big break"; I politely thanked him, he handed me the ticket, and we drove away.

Brought this up because this is the 1st time I've been pulled over since I've been a member of the PAFOA, and I've never been sure of whether I'd inform the officer of my CC'ing if I were stopped. Since there's no duty to inform in PA, the question of whether or not to volunteer this information is one of those topics that seems to be argued as fervently on both sides as the "which is better, 9mm or .45?" threads.

In any event, I did NOT inform the officer that I was carrying. He ran my paperwork, so I'm not sure if he would know that I had an LTC, but he never asked. It was no different than any of the other stops I've had in the past where I didn't have an LTC and wasn't carrying.

When we got home, I told my wife I was contemplating telling him, but chose not to because I was concerned if I did he would have pulled me from the truck and disarmed me, ran the weapon through the illegal registry, essentially treating me like a criminal for no reason, and I didn't want the kids to see that. Her response surprised me. This woman, the person that fought me tooth-and-nail over even buying a gun and getting my LTC, says very matter-of-fact: "Why would you tell him? If the law doesn't require it, it's none of his business." WOO-HOO! More progress made.

In short, I will likely NOT inform in the future unless there is a very specific reason to do so.

**HiredGoon** · September 8th, 2008, 11:02 AM

Sounds like it worked out pretty well, except for the ticket of course.
Cop gave you a "break", you were not detained, rousted, etc. and you are now even deeper in love with the wife after her comments

Next step: get wifey trained in gun handling & safety and get her a LTCF

**mythaeus** · September 8th, 2008, 11:05 AM

I wish I had the choice. I would NEVER inform the LEO's, but Philadelphia REQUIRES that you do (stated on a list of things you have to do when you pick up your LTCF).

I drive with my wife a lot and we both carry. I wonder if my wife have to inform the LEO's as well since she wouldn't be interacting with them when I get pulled over?

Al

**General Geoff** · September 8th, 2008, 11:12 AM

(stated on a list of things you have to do when you pick up your LTCF)

I wouldn't be too sure of the legality of that demand. I don't know if that falls under state preemption or not. One of the more legal types should be able to answer that more definitively, however.

**Statkowski** · September 8th, 2008, 11:12 AM

Unless the passenger in the vehicle is suspected of some wrongdoing, the passenger doesn't have to say anything at all to any police officer.

As for Philadelphia's requirement to inform, that certainly is not supported by state law. Perhaps a RTKL request to the P.P.D. Firearms Division asking for the statutory requirement for such might prove interesting.

**archon** · September 8th, 2008, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by General Geoff

I wouldn't be too sure of the legality of that demand. I don't know if that falls under state preemption or not. One of the more legal types should be able to answer that more definitively, however.

Philadelphia CANNOT require you to do anything beyond what is contained in state law. The UFA preempts any local ordinance or regulation. Furthermore, even if they revoke your LTCF for not following one of their dictates, case law suggests that it is an abuse of discretion to revoke when no law is broken or no pattern of conduct is established to invoke the character aspect of the statute. LTCF that have been revoked because of lawful OC incidents have generally been reversed by county judges in unpublished opinions.

The requirements you are talking about are just strongly worded "suggestions" that are being disquised as requirements. Just ignore the stupid letter that came with your LTCF.

**ChamberedRound** · September 8th, 2008, 11:20 AM

Originally Posted by HiredGoon

Next step: get wifey trained in gun handling & safety and get her a LTCF

I have taken her out shooting and given her the once-over on basic firearm safety and handling in the process. However, I think I'm a ways off from getter her to apply for an LTC.

Originally Posted by mythaeus

I wish I had the choice. I would NEVER inform the LEO's, but Philadelphia REQUIRES that you do (stated on a list of things you have to do when you pick up your LTCF).

I drive with my wife a lot and we both carry. I wonder if my wife have to inform the LEO's as well since she wouldn't be interacting with them when I get pulled over?

I'm not sure if this requirement from is on-the-level. It was my understanding that there's no duty to inform anywhere in PA, and that includes Philly. I admit that I have nothing to back up that claim other than that I quickly searched through the UFA and the PA Code and found nothing about duty to inform. However, I'm also not sure if duty to inform would be protected by the UFA's preemption clause.

Anyone with more info on this, let us know.

**RocketFoot** · September 8th, 2008, 11:21 AM

Good call and I agree 100%...concealed means no one needs to know!

Now if I were OC'ing, I would probably alert the LEO so when I reach for my wallet, he wouldn't think I was going for the iron on my hip...

**archon** · September 8th, 2008, 11:24 AM

Informing a police officer you are carrying will at a minimum involve you being removed from the car, having your gun seized, and getting patted down for more weapons.

At a maximum, you will end up face down in the dirty, handcuffed, full search, sat in the back of the police car, gun seized, gun disassembled, gun run through illegal database, a big show with backup arriving, and a detention of at least an hour.

Unless you want some or all of the above I would never inform, unless in the act of reaching for your papers the gun will become exposed. It is far better to tell a police officer you have a gun if there is any chance of it being exposed then hoping he won't see it.

While driving and carrying, always have your "papers" readily available without having to reach into an area containing your firearm. I always have my registration and insurance card in the visor of the car and when driving I take out my license and put it with the package. The only thing I do when stopped is hand the officer my papers and shut up. I don't say anything...nothing. Just nod your head, smile, and don't even answer what seem to be conversational questions such as "How are you doing today?" Every question an officer asks you is designed to get more information which is used to either further his investigation or cage you into confessing. NEVER NEVER talk to the police.

**KnightZero** · September 8th, 2008, 11:24 AM

The letters that come from the local sheriff's offices always seem to be filled with misinformation - Chester County's form told me that I should always inform. It also had other fun advice, such as recommending to avoid carrying if at all possible. At least Chester County phrased it as a "Suggestion" - I'm sure Philly would try to convince you that their personal preferences are state law.