Vehicle stop by a LEO yesterday (A "duty to inform" discussion)

[Wynder]

If we're to fight for people to accept open carry (or the carry of firearms in general) as a normal occurrence and want it to be treated as every day thing by others, then we should do the same. And, in this case, the best thing to do is to treat it as any other situation or licensure you may have been granted.

For example, a license is required to drive a car; when we're pulled over, do we inform the officer that we're licensed to drive? When an officer comes into your business, do you inform him that you have a business license? Do we inform for anything else we're permitted to lawfully carry?

If we continue to treat it as something that requires special measures, I believe that, in the end, it will be self-defeating.

[WhiteFeather]

It doesn't have to come to that, but more often than not (at least from the experiences of the members here) that's what takes place. Once one informs the LEO, they'll likely do one or more of the following in the name of "officer safety":

- Ask the person to exit the vehicle
- Disarm the person (note they will not ask the person to disarm, THEY will do it) and clear the weapon
- Ask for the individual's LTCF
- Run the LTCF to verify it's validity
- Run the gun's serial number through the "sales database" to verify it comes back to the person stopped, i.e. using the above database as a registry, even though they're not supposed to do that.

The link is a story of a guy that did NOT have a LTCF permit but lost his firearm rights forever because He informed the LEO that he was transporting a pistol without ammo in his car and made a stop outside of the law.

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/news-123/...of-page-4.html

Also you will read how in that particular case the LEO over reacted and made it worse for this guy with no criminal intent.

So all of CR and other fears about over reaction by a LEO is VERY real possiblity...Moral of the story, keep your mouth shut unless asked.

[ChamberedRound]

If we're to fight for people to accept open carry (or the carry of firearms in general) as a normal occurrence and want it to be treated as every day thing by others, then we should do the same. And, in this case, the best thing to do is to treat it as any other situation or licensure you may have been granted.

For example, a license is required to drive a car; when we're pulled over, do we inform the officer that we're licensed to drive? When an officer comes into your business, do you inform him that you have a business license? Do we inform for anything else we're permitted to lawfully carry?

If we continue to treat it as something that requires special measures, I believe that, in the end, it will be self-defeating.

This thread has NOTHING to do with Open Carry, and as such these comments are off-topic. Since this has come up, let me take a minute to discuss a growing trend on this site which I find troubling.


[RANT]

I completely support those who choose to Open Carry, and the efforts they undertake to promote an atmosphere of safe and conspicuous firearms handling. But while I support such efforts, I do not like the crusading by many members to spam threads on this site, and twist every discussion into a debate about Open Carry, or extolling the virtues of Open Carry, or criticizing those who don't Open Carry.

The fact remains that in PA, as in many other states, people also have the right to engage in Concealed Carry as well. Those who choose to do so have to think about the concerns I outlined in my OP, and should be able to discuss those concerns without debate from the OC'ers who think the CC'ers should OC in order to fight the power, stick it the the gubment, whatever. We get it, you like to OC, and you want everyone else to do it. Well, guess what: not everyone will, and there's nothing wrong with that.

In addition, please do not misconstrue anything I've said here as being partial to one form of carry or another, or as evidence that I personally engage in one form of carry more than the other. I respect everyone's decision to choose for themselves what is best for them, and I expect everyone else to extend the same courtesy to every other user on this forum.

As with every other thread on this site, it's expected that everyone respect the forum rules and keep the discussions on-topic.

[/RANT]

[gold cup abuser]

The short answer to the OP:

5th Amendment

Keep smiling, say NOTHING and have a nice day afterwards.

Because anything you say or do will be held agaist you afterwards.

OC/CC/NBC/CBS just stay quiet unless you either like confied spaces, getting handcuffed, and other wise having your life totally disrupted.

just a random thought or two.........

[Wynder]

This thread has NOTHING to do with Open Carry, and as such these comments are off-topic. Since this has come up, let me take a minute to discuss a growing trend on this site which I find troubling.

I honestly take offense to this... simply because the term "open carry" was mentioned in the post, doesn't make it a de facto diatribe for that method of carry. In fact, I spend the majority of the post relating the licensed carry of firearms with regards to a duty to inform, which leads me to wonder if there is a bias that exists here against folks who do OC and offer their opinion, even if it happens to mention a particular method (or in this case, both) of carry.

[XD40coyote]

I understand you have to inform in OH, unless they changed the law recently, so if you are in OH and carrying on a FL or UT lisc and get pulled over, hand the lisc over with drivers lisc is what I have read is the standard protocol.

In PA, unless I was OCing while driving, I wouldn't say a thing. If OC I'd prob hand the FL lisc with the drivers lisc, and act like a charming sweet lady so the cop doesn't get too nervous LOL. I rarely speed or anything though, only been pulled over once, for not doing a full 3 second stop at a stop sign- some rookie cop pulled me over LOL! Wouldn't go for my sob story that the sign was just put there and I sort of overlooked it till last second and got flabbergasted. I think my reg was expired too- oops, so he did let me off on that as I had the sticker at home, had forgot to put it on, but still got me for the stop sign. Since then I have always done a full 3 second stop if I see a cop car nearby!

[JoeyBones]

Chester County's form told me that I should always inform. It also had other fun advice, such as recommending to avoid carrying if at all possible.

LOL... Here in MontCo, I went w/ my G/F to the courthouse because I had successfully persuaded her to get her LTCF. I had already briefed her on most of the fundamentals of legality, duty to inform (lack thereof, to be more accurate), etc...
The guy processing the paperwork said to her, "You should ALWAYS say - first thing - if you are pulled over, that you are carrying, so that the officer may disarm you for his/her own safety. It would be asinine not to do so!"

I waited for him to turn his back and return to his paper-shuffling, and, upon pinching her gently on the ass to get her attention, muttered under my breath something to the effect of: "Horseshit. Don't listen to that. I will show you all the laws you need concern yourself with insofar as it relates to informing an officer, etc. etc."

She's a good girl, I tell 'ya... She has spread the truth on this and several other commonly-held misconceptions regarding LTCF-related matters, as situations arise. Unfortunately, she is not yet carrying. We are still sorting out what platform will best suit her for CC...

... But - In due time.... I am patient, at least with her

Regards,
-Bones

[ChamberedRound]

which leads me to wonder if there is a bias that exists here against folks who do OC

If you think that, then you don't spend enough time on this forum. There's LOTS of people here who OC, and BOTH OC and CC are strongly encouraged, as the more important issue is that we get the word out that people have the right to carry, and should do so if they feel comfortable.

As far as duty to inform is concerned, the law REQUIRES one to provide proof of licensure when operating a vehicle. This is not the case for CC'ing, hence why I brought up the topic. As for OC'ing, I'm pretty sure (although I could be wrong) that it would be kinda hard for me to hide the fact that I'm OC'ing from a LEO when he stops me. IMHO, OC'ing already implies informing, CC does not.

Sorry if you take offense, but the issue of OC gets interjected into way too many threads on this site.

[38SnubFan]

I think we've come across this type of discussion before, so I'll offer my $.02 once again and say that I probably WOULD inform the officer that I'm carrying. It honestly depends on the situation and the attitude of the officer approaching me. Normally I just hand my LTCF to the officer along with my DL and haven't even been asked as to whether or not I was carrying.

I keep reading the NEVER TELL THE POLICE ANYTHING attitude here, and as well as that may be the case for those living in the Scranton/Wilkes-Barre, Dickson City, or Philadelphia areas; in most cases I'm just reading about all the BAD EXPERIENCES and none of the good experiences - sort of like how the media works.

I know I've read about good experiences with LEOs in the past in this forum. It would be nice to see more of it. I know we have a couple of LEOs among us here at PAFOA, and I'm sure there have even been non-PAFOA LEOs who have visited us.

It would probably be in our best interests to state our opinions about what we would or would not do in a Law Enforcement encounter, WITHOUT insulting or disparaging them (with the exception of a couple of Dickson City officers who truly do deserve to be stripped of their badges).

Regards,
38SnubFan

[soberbyker]

Long setup on this one, so bear with me.

Was pulled over as I passed by a checkpoint setup for the BS "Click it or ticket" budget-balancing campaign yesterday. Had the wife and kids in the truck, was coming home from the landscaping nursery with a tree. Also had a case of beer on the front seat as I was headed to my neighbor's when I got home to watch the games.

He told me I was doing 55.7 in a 40; I didn't argue, just simply stated that I knew I was going faster than 40, but that I didn't think I was going 55. I honestly don't think I was going that fast, as I had the family in the truck and a tree in the back which I didn't want to lose all its leaves. But, I acquiesced as I admit that I wasn't 100% sure. He wrote me for 45 in a 40, no points, etc. He "cut me a big break"; I politely thanked him, he handed me the ticket, and we drove away.

Brought this up because this is the 1st time I've been pulled over since I've been a member of the PAFOA, and I've never been sure of whether I'd inform the officer of my CC'ing if I were stopped. Since there's no duty to inform in PA, the question of whether or not to volunteer this information is one of those topics that seems to be argued as fervently on both sides as the "which is better, 9mm or .45?" threads.
In any event, I did NOT inform the officer that I was carrying. He ran my paperwork, so I'm not sure if he would know that I had an LTC, but he never asked. It was no different than any of the other stops I've had in the past where I didn't have an LTC and wasn't carrying.

When we got home, I told my wife I was contemplating telling him, but chose not to because I was concerned if I did he would have pulled me from the truck and disarmed me, ran the weapon through the illegal registry, essentially treating me like a criminal for no reason, and I didn't want the kids to see that. Her response surprised me. This woman, the person that fought me tooth-and-nail over even buying a gun and getting my LTC, says very matter-of-fact: "Why would you tell him? If the law doesn't require it, it's none of his business." WOO-HOO! More progress made.

In short, I will likely NOT inform in the future unless there is a very specific reason to do so.

Last year I was headed out to one of the westie shoots on the turnpike with my wife and Rand, carload (SUV) of guns in the back and Rand & I were carrying loaded guns. PAFOA sticker on the back window. Got stopped by the PSP for speeding, was also cut a break (but did get points) no mention of guns by us or the officer, everyone went on their merry way. I saw no reason to add to the tension of a car stop on the interstate by adding guns to the mix.

Bill
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