Vehicle stop by a LEO yesterday (A "duty to inform" discussion)

[steveforopen]

The only time I would say one has a "duty" to inform is if the firearm is kept in the same compartment as license, registration, and insurance. Then, it is a "duty" to yourself to ensure you are not drawn down on by a police officer for rummaging where there is a loaded firearm during a traffic stop.

[Noah_Zark]

. . . "Why would you tell him? If the law doesn't require it, it's none of his business."

+1. Smart woman.

If the LEO don't ask, I don't tell.

Noah

[mythaeus]

I understand the PA UFA preemption pretty well. The problem is that it's not just a hand-out that was given during the LTCF pickup, but it's a signed paper. You have to sign it before picking up the LTCF. There are 2 main requirements:

1. If you left your gun in the car and it's stolen out of the car, your LTCF WILL be revoked.

2. You MUST inform the LEO's during any interaction, other than casual interactions.

There was a recent thread on here about someone losing there license in case #1 in Philly and the appeal was denied. I also am concerned about having to go through all the legal chanels to fight these points if my LTCF is revoked.

Al

(If you tell me to move out of Philly, I'll smack you for being unhelpful )

[shefearsnothing]

Glad to hear it worked out well for you. I have had a few speeing tickets but nothing recently. I would not likely mention it even if I was OC in the car (usually am) becuase unless an officer was standing all the way up near the windshield I don't think they'd see it anyway. The way my glock sits and the way my seatbelt sits it's just not really noticeable from outside the vehicle. (Hope I didn't just jinx myself. )

[archon]

I understand the PA UFA preemption pretty well. The problem is that it's not just a hand-out that was given during the LTCF pickup, but it's a signed paper. You have to sign it before picking up the LTCF. There are 2 main requirements:

1. If you left your gun in the car and it's stolen out of the car, your LTCF WILL be revoked.

2. You MUST inform the LEO's during any interaction, other than casual interactions.

Signing something doesn't make it legally enforcable. Requiring the action is only designed to make it look more legitimate and try to trick you into thinking it is enforcable.

I would be interested in seeing the ruling (or any ruling) from an appeal involving a revocation for the stolen car scenerio. I can't see how that would demonstrate any criteria under the UFA that would allow revocation. Maybe if you left the car unlocked with the keys it in - that might demonstrate bad character. But, what if you were going somewhere like a school where you couldn't legally carry. Wouldn't it demonstrate good judgment to leave the gun in your car and not attempt to carry it illegally?

Although knowing how Philly government works (or doesn't work) it wouldn't surprise me that you would lose an administrative appeal. You would probably have to go to a real court to get a fair shake, and even at that, you might have to go to Superior/Commonwealth Court to find unbiased judges. The bonus if you do is that you will set state wide precedent that will shut down the aweful practices of Philadelphia.

P.S. Moving outside of Philly would be a good idea too.

[shefearsnothing]

But, what if you were going somewhere like a school where you couldn't legally carry. Wouldn't it demonstrate good judgment to leave the gun in your car and not attempt to carry it illegally?

Aren't you prohibited from having it on school property entirely? (Ok I realize you could be parking across the st which would not be school property but I'm just saying....because you didn't specify where you were parking in said scenario)

[LittleRedToyota]

There was a recent thread on here about someone losing there license in case #1 in Philly and the appeal was denied.

do you happen to know if it was appealed beyond the local philly court...as in to a court that might have at least a little respect for the actual law and due process?

I also am concerned about having to go through all the legal chanels to fight these points if my LTCF is revoked.

a perfectly valid concern. if you aren't prepared for the ramifications of being a test case, you should strive to make sure you do not become a test case.

[chrisjames_71]

Informing a police officer you are carrying will at a minimum involve you being removed from the car, having your gun seized, and getting patted down for more weapons.

Really it does?? Wow, I didn't realize that and I sure as heck wasn't pulled out of the vehicle when I informed the officer I was armed (many years ago). And I know for a fact that none of my buddies do that on traffic stops...

[lildobe]

Informing a police officer you are carrying will at a minimum involve you being removed from the car, having your gun seized, and getting patted down for more weapons.

Interesting - I was going to get a midnight snack the other day and ended up going through a DUI checkpoint. I informed I was carrying (OC) because while one officer was looking at my license, two others were looking through my car windows, and I was concerned that one of them might see my firearm.

I did not, however, come right out and say "I have a gun," rather, I handed my LTCF along with my DL.

The officer thanked me, handed both back to me and waived me through the checkpoint.

[ChamberedRound]

Really it does?? Wow, I didn't realize that and I sure as heck wasn't pulled out of the vehicle when I informed the officer I was armed (many years ago). And I know for a fact that none of my buddies do that on traffic stops...

It doesn't have to come to that, but more often than not (at least from the experiences of the members here) that's what takes place. Once one informs the LEO, they could do one or more of the following in the name of "officer safety":

- Ask the person to exit the vehicle
- Disarm the person (note they will not ask the person to disarm, THEY will do it) and clear the weapon
- Ask for the individual's LTCF
- Run the LTCF to verify it's validity
- Run the gun's serial number through the "sales database" to verify it comes back to the person stopped, i.e. using the above database as a registry, even though they're not supposed to do that.

Interesting - I was going to get a midnight snack the other day and ended up going through a DUI checkpoint. I informed I was carrying (OC) because while one officer was looking at my license, two others were looking through my car windows, and I was concerned that one of them might see my firearm.

I did not, however, come right out and say "I have a gun," rather, I handed my LTCF along with my DL.

The officer thanked me, handed both back to me and waived me through the checkpoint.

It could just be that we don't hear about the "non-issues" as much on the site, because, well, there wasn't an issue. Good to hear you weren't hassled, especially at a DUI checkpoint; I hope that's a trend which continues.