Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default PA Dealer question

    My Question is on the Mossberg 590 Shockwave.
    I know how to do the 4473 as I talked to my ATF rep.
    My question is do I need to do a SP 4-113 State Police form as it is a shot gun with 14" barrel pistol grip only 26.5" overall length.
    On the epics system is says that if less than 18" barrel and it also says if less than 26" it woud be a hand gun and that I would need to send the SP 4-113.
    Thank you in advance for any and all your time - help

  2. #2
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    Default Re: PA Dealer question

    How did your ATF IOI tell you to fill out the 4473? Handgun, long gun or other? From that answer you should know whether or not to do a SP4-113. Long gun or other, no 113, handgun 113.
    Ron USAF Ret E-8 FFL01/SOT3 NRA Benefactor Member

  3. #3
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    Default Re: PA Dealer question

    The SP 4-113 is a State form and only applies to "firearms" as defined by PA rules. I keep a copy of PA CHAPTER 61 FIREARMS AND OTHER DANGEROUS ARTICLES taped above my desk,:

    "Firearm." *Any pistol or revolver with a barrel length less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length less than 18 inches or any rifle with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun with an overall length of less than 26 inches. The barrel length of a firearm shall be determined by measuring from the muzzle of the barrel to the face of the closed action, bolt or cylinder, whichever is applicable.".

    Read carefully, 15-inch restriction applies to "pistol and revolver", not you, Shotgun less than 18-inches, not you, rifle less than 16-inches, not you, and anything less than 26-inches overall, not you. So, no, you do not need a SP 4-113.

    On The 4473 (Federal form) it must be transferred as an "OTHER FIREARM" and must be transferred to a person over 21. NOTE: You can sell or give it to a younger person but it must be a private transfer, not involving a FFL holder,

    Steve

  4. #4
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    Default Re: PA Dealer question

    Quote Originally Posted by SteveWag View Post
    The SP 4-113 is a State form and only applies to "firearms" as defined by PA rules. I keep a copy of PA CHAPTER 61 FIREARMS AND OTHER DANGEROUS ARTICLES taped above my desk,:

    "Firearm." *Any pistol or revolver with a barrel length less than 15 inches, any shotgun with a barrel length less than 18 inches or any rifle with a barrel length less than 16 inches, or any pistol, revolver, rifle or shotgun with an overall length of less than 26 inches. The barrel length of a firearm shall be determined by measuring from the muzzle of the barrel to the face of the closed action, bolt or cylinder, whichever is applicable.".

    Read carefully, 15-inch restriction applies to "pistol and revolver", not you, Shotgun less than 18-inches, not you, rifle less than 16-inches, not you, and anything less than 26-inches overall, not you. So, no, you do not need a SP 4-113.

    On The 4473 (Federal form) it must be transferred as an "OTHER FIREARM" and must be transferred to a person over 21. NOTE: You can sell or give it to a younger person but it must be a private transfer, not involving a FFL holder,

    Steve
    It would be a PA defined "Firearm" since it is a shotgun with a barrel less than 18". The fact that it is over 26" overall length doesn't negate the <18" smoothbore due to the use of "or" in the definition.

    A SP4-113 is required.


    4473 will be marked as "OTHER FIREARM".
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot, dregan, Frenchy, Fragger, ungawa.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: PA Dealer question

    http://www.psp.pa.gov/firearms-infor...ns-10-2008.pdf

    Clearly stamped This Form is for Handguns Only. Caveat: 2008 info

  6. #6
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    Default Re: PA Dealer question

    Quote Originally Posted by Bang View Post
    http://www.psp.pa.gov/firearms-infor...ns-10-2008.pdf

    Clearly stamped This Form is for Handguns Only. Caveat: 2008 info
    The PSP also say that the Sportsmans Permit is not a license to carry concealed, when in fact it is for sporting purposes. And they also at one time required AR-15's to be listed on a SP4-113.

    SP4-113's are for "firearms", whether they be "handguns", or SBS's/SBR's/AOW's/Other if they meet the measurements prescribed for the definition of a "firearm".

    Look at area E of the form.
    Last edited by knight0334; March 19th, 2017 at 03:22 PM.
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot, dregan, Frenchy, Fragger, ungawa.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: PA Dealer question

    Safest for the dealer is to fill out the form, because you don't get your license and PICS access yanked for filling out an unnecessary form, but you might if you fail to complete a mandatory form.

    But it's not a "shotgun" under most definitions, since it is not designed to be shoulder-fired. On the other hand, it fires a shotgun shell, and there's no applicable statutory definition of a "shotgun" in PA law.

    For someone who wants to stay in a heavily-regulated business, doing many transactions, just try to get instructions in writing from the PSP and do what they say in this case. The profit from a few of these isn't enough to justify pushing the envelope and making a stand.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Thanks to all who attended my Firearms Law Workshops this year!

  8. #8
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    Default Re: PA Dealer question

    Hope the PSP doesn't have the disclaimer the federal IRS has...that they are not responsible for the results of actions taken based on erroneous information given by an agent.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: PA Dealer question

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    Safest for the dealer is to fill out the form, because you don't get your license and PICS access yanked for filling out an unnecessary form, but you might if you fail to complete a mandatory form.

    But it's not a "shotgun" under most definitions, since it is not designed to be shoulder-fired. On the other hand, it fires a shotgun shell, and there's no applicable statutory definition of a "shotgun" in PA law.

    For someone who wants to stay in a heavily-regulated business, doing many transactions, just try to get instructions in writing from the PSP and do what they say in this case. The profit from a few of these isn't enough to justify pushing the envelope and making a stand.
    The base line difference between a shotgun and any other firearm is that a "shotgun" has a smooth bore. Rifled shotguns are even considered smoothbores.
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot, dregan, Frenchy, Fragger, ungawa.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: PA Dealer question

    Quote Originally Posted by knight0334 View Post
    The base line difference between a shotgun and any other firearm is that a "shotgun" has a smooth bore. Rifled shotguns are even considered smoothbores.
    That's certainly an argument from the real world, but so far as PA law goes, "shotgun" is an undefined term, as I mentioned before when I researched a black powder SBS in PA. In that instance (mostly unrelated to this "probably not a shotgun") the Feds exclude blackpowder guns from their laws, but PA does not, so you probably can't register a blackpowder shotgun as an NFA SBS, while PA's POW statute probably includes it as a short-barreled (sawed-off) shotgun that's only exempt if "he complied with the National Firearms Act (26 U.S.C. 5801 et seq.)", which is a philosophical question if the NFA doesn't apply (you're not really complying, but neither are you in violation of the NFA).
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Thanks to all who attended my Firearms Law Workshops this year!

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