Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Is NICS a national registration system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bang View Post
    A registry even if de facto does not have to contain information about any particular gun...only information that the person investigated was investigated for receipt of a gun. i.e. Joe Blow probably has a gun (that is called probable cause, unless such information would be considered too stale at time of application for warrant).

    To clarify...I do a 4473, FFL makes the call, NICS has date and time record of the contact. Unless that record is purged, it can be used to ascertain that I at minimum have an interest in firearms as documented said date and time. Purging may exist in law, but be superseded by some obscure section of the homeland security act. Bottom line, I don't trust them and as GL has pointed out better than me, we could have the equivalent of a Massachusetts government in short order, and we all know how that goes.
    There are degrees of "registration". Knowing that someone may have "guns" just puts them into the 30-60% of Americans who have guns.

    Texas Gun Owners.jpg

    The real problem is when the government knows exactly WHICH guns you have, because that makes a ban and confiscation possible.

    That's why the gun-hating collectivists keep insisting on eliminating all private transfers, and having universal registration, and having mandatory reporting of lost or stolen guns. Because they don't have any interest in stopping crimes (which those things don't do), they want total control over all guns, they anticipate repeating the Nazi door-to-door confiscations, with lists in hand, and the ability to jail anyone who can't account for all the guns on the list.

    The Left plays the long game, and they have no problem with lying to the American people about the facts and about their ultimate goals. I don't trust any government with registration of what I read, what guns I own, or a list of every place I go on a daily basis. They've demonstrated that they are unwilling to safeguard my info, and they are willing if not actually eager to use all power to promote their agenda, without regard for the laws or the Constitution.

    That being said, as long as we have a mandatory background check on any transfers, I prefer local control over centralized Washington-based control. That's just common sense.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Thanks to all who attended my Firearms Law Workshops this year!

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Is NICS a national registration system?

    GL:
    The real problem is when the government knows exactly WHICH guns you have, because that makes a ban and confiscation possible
    Good point. Maybe they could shortcut to the media. They seem adept at identifying "weapons of choice".

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Is NICS a national registration system?

    "Is NICS a national registration system?"

    As for sales handled through FFL's, anytime a name is assigned to a firearm's serial number and information is saved and maintained, it's a registry by any other name. Stolen guns go into a national database. If you reported a gun stolen 20 years ago and it is recovered today, they will contact the person from some known database to return it.
    μολων λαβε

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Is NICS a national registration system?

    Quote Originally Posted by GunLawyer001 View Post
    There are degrees of "registration". Knowing that someone may have "guns" just puts them into the 30-60% of Americans who have guns.

    Texas Gun Owners.jpg

    The real problem is when the government knows exactly WHICH guns you have, because that makes a ban and confiscation possible.

    That's why the gun-hating collectivists keep insisting on eliminating all private transfers, and having universal registration, and having mandatory reporting of lost or stolen guns. Because they don't have any interest in stopping crimes (which those things don't do), they want total control over all guns, they anticipate repeating the Nazi door-to-door confiscations, with lists in hand, and the ability to jail anyone who can't account for all the guns on the list.

    The Left plays the long game, and they have no problem with lying to the American people about the facts and about their ultimate goals. I don't trust any government with registration of what I read, what guns I own, or a list of every place I go on a daily basis. They've demonstrated that they are unwilling to safeguard my info, and they are willing if not actually eager to use all power to promote their agenda, without regard for the laws or the Constitution.

    That being said, as long as we have a mandatory background check on any transfers, I prefer local control over centralized Washington-based control. That's just common sense.

    Well said.
    Why is it that when some robots are left in darkness they will seek out the light?

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Is NICS a national registration system?

    Quote Originally Posted by tlnzz1 View Post
    "Is NICS a national registration system?"

    As for sales handled through FFL's, anytime a name is assigned to a firearm's serial number and information is saved and maintained, it's a registry by any other name. Stolen guns go into a national database. If you reported a gun stolen 20 years ago and it is recovered today, they will contact the person from some known database to return it.
    And who knows if the PSP does indeed share the ROS database with the Feds? I certainly would not be surprised if they did.
    I don't speak English , I talk American!

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Is NICS a national registration system?

    I can see no reason for them not to. Intelligence shared between LE entities is normal.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Is NICS a national registration system?

    From an email today from NRA-ILA:

    This week, two important bills, House Bill 763 and Senate Bill 224, have been introduced in the Pennsylvania General Assembly. Sponsored by state Representative Jason Ortitay (R-46) and state Senator Camera Bartolotta (R-46), these bills would eliminate the current Pennsylvania Instant Check System (PICS), as well as the current handgun record of sale, and replace it with the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), which is administered by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). It is imperative that you contact your state legislators and urge them to support HB 763 and SB 224! Please click the “Take Action” button to contact your legislators.

    Under the NICS system, licensed dealers contact the FBI, via a toll-free telephone number to run a check of computerized criminal history and mental health records at the point of sale for firearm purchases. Upon confirmation that the purchaser has no prohibiting criminal or mental health record, the purchaser may take possession of the firearm.

    Since its inception in 1998, PICS has cost Pennsylvania tax payers nearly 120 million dollars to conduct background checks on gun purchasers in the Keystone State. By replacing the system with NICS, taxpayers in Pennsylvania would be relieved of a burdensome, duplicative process and would be able to take advantage of the more efficient federal system. Currently, 30 states, including the District of Columbia, solely utilize the NICS system for all firearm background checks.

    Once again, please click the “Take Action” button above to contact your state Senator and state Representative in support of HB 763 and SB 224.
    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....................

    My thoughts: How do the citizens of those 30 states feel about the NICS system? NICS would relieve PA taxpayers of $$$$ burden of PICS? Uh, don't they pay federal taxes? And if more pile onto NICS, won't that additional burden require increased funding? Guess who pays that. NICS is a more efficient system? I don't see them giving any side-by-sides, so I don't know if or how that's accurate. It's a little alarming to read that the FBI has mental health records or access. Does that mean more detailed than having been 302'd?

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Is NICS a national registration system?

    I'd bet the NICS is sufficiently over-funded right now , and has more capacity than PICS. PICS already uses NICS , so we'd just be eliminating the middle-man so to speak.
    I don't speak English , I talk American!

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Is NICS a national registration system?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bang View Post
    From an email today from NRA-ILA:

    This week, two important bills, House Bill 763 and Senate Bill 224, have been introduced in the Pennsylvania General Assembly. Sponsored by state Representative Jason Ortitay (R-46) and state Senator Camera Bartolotta (R-46), these bills would eliminate the current Pennsylvania Instant Check System (PICS), as well as the current handgun record of sale, and replace it with the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS), which is administered by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI). It is imperative that you contact your state legislators and urge them to support HB 763 and SB 224! Please click the “Take Action” button to contact your legislators.

    Under the NICS system, licensed dealers contact the FBI, via a toll-free telephone number to run a check of computerized criminal history and mental health records at the point of sale for firearm purchases. Upon confirmation that the purchaser has no prohibiting criminal or mental health record, the purchaser may take possession of the firearm.

    Since its inception in 1998, PICS has cost Pennsylvania tax payers nearly 120 million dollars to conduct background checks on gun purchasers in the Keystone State. By replacing the system with NICS, taxpayers in Pennsylvania would be relieved of a burdensome, duplicative process and would be able to take advantage of the more efficient federal system. Currently, 30 states, including the District of Columbia, solely utilize the NICS system for all firearm background checks.

    Once again, please click the “Take Action” button above to contact your state Senator and state Representative in support of HB 763 and SB 224.
    .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .................................................. .....................

    My thoughts: How do the citizens of those 30 states feel about the NICS system? NICS would relieve PA taxpayers of $$$$ burden of PICS? Uh, don't they pay federal taxes? And if more pile onto NICS, won't that additional burden require increased funding? Guess who pays that. NICS is a more efficient system? I don't see them giving any side-by-sides, so I don't know if or how that's accurate. It's a little alarming to read that the FBI has mental health records or access. Does that mean more detailed than having been 302'd?
    I have no problem with eliminating the "Record of Sale" form and database. But that has nothing to do with abandoning PICS and submitting to the central authority for NICS. Eliminating the ROS is good, but constantly linking it to the spam of "replacing PICS with NICS" is deceptive. They're separate statutes.

    No fan of liberty and freedom should be willing to give up local control and hand it over to the already-powerful federal government in Washington.

    Every time that NICS gets it wrong, you're either going to have a wrongful approval (or 3 day delay with no determination) of a prohibited person with a gun and a paper trail to him (making criminal prosecution easy), or you're going to have to challenge a wrongful denial through the Federal court system. This is great for lawyers who will make a lot more money making a Federal case of everything, but not so great for the many folks who might have had $2K to fix a PICS issue but not $10K to fix a NICS issue.

    I will point out that most Pennsylvania prohibitors can be fixed under existing Pennsylvania law, whether it's a 302 or a criminal conviction. There IS NO PATH TO RELIEF under Federal law, an involuntary commitment is forever so far as the Feds are concerned.

    The old Soviet Union centralized everything in Moscow. We should have learned from their failure.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Thanks to all who attended my Firearms Law Workshops this year!

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Is NICS a national registration system?

    Sometimes people painfully regret getting what they asked for.

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