Concealed carry with out a permit.

[lewprinting]

I did a search of this forum for such a subject and couldn't find anything I was looking for.

I would like to run an idea by you guys. Now I doubt it's an original idea seeing as I' don't think I've ever had an original idea in my life.

What about putting together an effort to abolish the CCW application process and permit in PA? In my view, if you are good enough to walk into a gun store and walk out with a pistol then you are good enough to carry it concealed. It seems to work just fine in Vermont.

Here are some arguments for what I'm saying.

1. While open carry with a permit is legal in the state of PA if you do so you're running the risk of having it snatched from you by a criminal/group of criminals.

2. While open carrying in public you always run the risk of having some alarmist call the police in which case you'll have to put up with that hassle.

3. You pretty much have to go through the same process when you buy a firearm as when you get a permit so I don't see the point. It's been a while since I renewed my permit but I believe I remember having to give some references or something like that. Since when do you need references to prove you have the right to defend yourself?

4. Having to go through the process of applying for a permit is just more government bureaucracy and waists time the sherifs could be spending on more important things.

5. The application process takes time. You may be in an immediate need of personal protection during that time. In such case, the application process is infringing on your right to keep an bear arms and your life is in immediate danger as a result. (your attacker just got out of prison early; you just left your psycho wife-beating husband and he's pissed, etc., etc.)

6. (Line item intentionally left blank for you to add your reason.)

To me the law makes no sense. You can open carry which might cause some of the above mentioned problems. Or you can carry concealed with no permit and cause none of the above mentioned problems. It's kind of a no-brainer to me. The law should be this: You have a right to defend yourself, your family, your friends, the guy on the street, your personal property with a firearm. As long as we don't see it we don't care. As long as you don't use the firearm in the commission of a crime we don't care.

Pull!!! Ok there's the clay pigeon. Let's see how many of you can shoot it down.

Mike.

[knight0334]

I did a search of this forum for such a subject and couldn't find anything I was looking for.

I would like to run an idea by you guys. Now I doubt it's an original idea seeing as I' don't think I've ever had an original idea in my life.

What about putting together an effort to abolish the CCW application process and permit in PA? In my view, if you are good enough to walk into a gun store and walk out with a pistol then you are good enough to carry it concealed. It seems to work just fine in Vermont.

Here are some arguments for what I'm saying.

1. While open carry with a permit is legal in the state of PA if you do so you're running the risk of having it snatched from you by a criminal/group of criminals.

2. While open carrying in public you always run the risk of having some alarmist call the police in which case you'll have to put up with that hassle.

3. You pretty much have to go through the same process when you buy a firearm as when you get a permit so I don't see the point. It's been a while since I renewed my permit but I believe I remember having to give some references or something like that. Since when do you need references to prove you have the right to defend yourself?

4. Having to go through the process of applying for a permit is just more government bureaucracy and waists time the sherifs could be spending on more important things.

5. The application process takes time. You may be in an immediate need of personal protection during that time. In such case, the application process is infringing on your right to keep an bear arms and your life is in immediate danger as a result. (your attacker just got out of prison early; you just left your psycho wife-beating husband and he's pissed, etc., etc.)

6. (Line item intentionally left blank for you to add your reason.)

To me the law makes no sense. You can open carry which might cause some of the above mentioned problems. Or you can carry concealed with no permit and cause none of the above mentioned problems. It's kind of a no-brainer to me. The law should be this: You have a right to defend yourself, your family, your friends, the guy on the street, your personal property with a firearm. As long as we don't see it we don't care. As long as you don't use the firearm in the commission of a crime we don't care.

Pull!!! Ok there's the clay pigeon. Let's see how many of you can shoot it down.

Mike.

Like the LTCF process or not, we'd be F'd if we abolished it. The Vermont style is NOT what we want because the other states will never go Vermont style. If anything, we need Alaskan style were the permit/license is optional for reciprocal uses.

I personally would vote against Vermont just because of the reciprocal uses. Alaskan style is what we need..

[tes151]

Its just like anything else. It's ALL about the CONTROL and the MONEY. If the government can charge us to have our rights, and we let them, good luck getting it turned back around. Money to a government is like crack to a junkie.

[soberbyker]

lewprinting, your idea of no license/permit at all is a good one but I doubt it would ever come to light.

I'd like to correct one point you made however, unless you are in the City of Philadelphia*, you do not need a license to open carry a handgun in Pennsylvania, as long as you're legally allowed to own it.


* the law states "cities of the first class" in PA, Philly is the only city that fits the description

also one other minor point, in PA we do not have a CCW permit, it's called a License To Carry Firearms (LTCF)


Bill

.

[NineseveN]

Like the LTCF process or not, we'd be F'd if we abolished it. The Vermont style is NOT what we want because the other states will never go Vermont style. If anything, we need Alaskan style were the permit/license is optional for reciprocal uses.

I personally would vote against Vermont just because of the reciprocal uses. Alaskan style is what we need..

I'm rather surprised to see you say that. Maybe I'm being a bit self-centered, but I'd rather have unadulterated liberty 350 days a year and deal with the hassle of getting a Utah, Florida or other no-res permit for reciprocity reasons on the other 15 or so than to keep the PA permit and continue to let them shit on everyone, even the people who have no need for reciprocity in the name of convenience. Vermont or Alaska, either way, I'm down. I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it

[LowFlyer]

1. While open carry with a permit is legal in the state of PA if you do so you're running the risk of having it snatched from you by a criminal/group of criminals.

You run the risk of dying everytime you get in a car, but the above proposed scenario has not yet been documented were a non-LEO has been involved.

[knight0334]

I'm rather surprised to see you say that. Maybe I'm being a bit self-centered, but I'd rather have unadulterated liberty 350 days a year and deal with the hassle of getting a Utah, Florida or other no-res permit for reciprocity reasons on the other 15 or so than to keep the PA permit and continue to let them shit on everyone, even the people who have no need for reciprocity in the name of convenience. Vermont or Alaska, either way, I'm down. I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it

I'm sorry, its just that I worked hard writing our and other state's signing agents to get these reciprocal agreements. I cant begin to count the numbers of Senators and Representatives of WV alone that I wrote to get them to revise their law to honor our license. Plus a FL or UT nonresident license is no good there.

You would still have that unadulterated liberty.. Alaskan style is like Vermont, its just that the license is optional. You dont need it or have to have it for open or concealed carry at all within the state. But you can still get a home state license for traveling. The Vermont way is not good at all until after we revolt and take the entire United State of America back from the socialist panzies.

[NineseveN]

I'm sorry, its just that I worked hard writing our and other state's signing agents to get these reciprocal agreements. I cant begin to count the numbers of Senators and Representatives of WV alone that I wrote to get them to revise their law to honor our license.

You're not alone there, I begged and pleaded at the end of a keyboard for some time as well, I still don't see that as an objective reason. It's one with immense personal value, I admit, but that's not going to work as a platform to convince others, right?

You would still have that unadulterated liberty.. Alaskan style is like Vermont, its just that the license is optional. You dont need it or have to have it for open or concealed carry at all within the state. But you can still get a home state license for traveling. The Vermont way is not good at all until after we revolt and take the entire United State of America back from the socialist panzies.

I'm very aware of what the Alaska Carry scheme is, I prefer it to Vermont in some ways, but the question raised by your remarks was not why go for Alaska in lieu of Vermont style carry, it was your comment that seems to say that you'd rather keep the restrictive PA license as it is than to support Vermont style carry. If Vermont were on the table, you'd vote against it or not support. But tell me, to raise on objective point, what is more likely, adding a provisional license to Vermont carry if we already have it (which would preclude voting against it if it were on the table) to make it more like Alaska's carry scheme, or to throw Vermont carry under the bus, keep PA's carry scheme and hope for Alaska style carry to come around?

I mean I understand your personal stakes in this, but are we really clamoring to divide the lines based on that? And if so, why should I not be opposed to the additional overhead of Alaska-style carry as unnecessary since I don't go to West Virginia or anywhere else that would not honor a Vermont type permit (or a non-res permit from elsewhere)?

[The Drew]

Personally, I'd rather we reform the revocation and licensing process rather than abolish it altogether. Currently we have one of the better permit systems in the nation. The problem comes with inconsistency between counties and in how revocations and denials are handed out. I think we stand a MUCH better chance of reforming the license system, than abolshing it.

My reason for supporting the permit system does have to do with reciprocity, we're gaining more states every year. Ideally we shouldn't need a permit to carry anywhere in the United States, But we all know that is just a pipe dream at this moment. Our first goal should be to get all states recognizing each other's permits, then work on Vermont/Alaska style carry across the US.

[Philbert]

My two biggest problems with PA's system are the use of character references and the propensity of some counties to call employers to announce that you have applied for an LTCF.

I would like to see a training requirement in PA's permit system to replace the references. This would help us big time with reciprocity. It also makes much more sense to have a training certificate from a qualified instructor than character references from people who might never have seen you handle a firearm.