Firearms in vehicle

[tl_3237]

Could someone please advise as to the Pa laws regarding the following:

A group of guys decide to carpool to the range but want to stop before the range for breakfast or after for lunch or stop for some other errand. All firearms are unloaded with ammo in separate containers. Since they are stopping at the restaurant/business they are not going directly to or from the range and their residences. Are there any legal issues involved:

1. if all firearms are long guns?;
2. if handguns are included?;
3. if noone in the vehicle has a LTCF?;
4. if at least one person in vehicle has LTCF?

[JayBell]

heres how it works:

all long guns(rifles/shotguns of title 1 length) must be unloaded and ammunition in a seperate compartment of the case, or external to the case, regardless of LTCF status.

An LTCF does not allow you to carry title 1 (non NFA) firearms loaded.
the only "rifles and shotguns" legal to be loaded in the vehicle with an LTCF are those that fit the NFA requirements, namely "Rifle with a barrel less than 16" and an overall length under 26 inches" and "shotguns with a barrel less than 18" and an overall length under 26 inches"

If no one has a LTCF, all handguns must be unloaded with ammunition in a seperate compartment of the case, or external to the case.

If everyone/some have an LTF, i would suggest all firearms not ACTUALLY CARRIED be unloaded in a case, with ammunition in a seperate compartment of the case, or external to the case.

thats pretty much it.

[lildobe]

Could someone please advise as to the Pa laws regarding the following:

A group of guys decide to carpool to the range but want to stop before the range for breakfast or after for lunch or stop for some other errand. All firearms are unloaded with ammo in separate containers. Since they are stopping at the restaurant/business they are not going directly to or from the range and their residences. Are there any legal issues involved:

1. if all firearms are long guns?;

If all of the firearms in the vehicle are long guns, unloaded and ammo seperate, you are 100% legal. Only firearms as defined by 18 PAC § 6102 are restricted

2. if handguns are included?;
3. if noone in the vehicle has a LTCF?;

By my understanding, this would be illegal.

4. if at least one person in vehicle has LTCF?

If that person is in DIRECT control of the "firearms" (as defined by law) then you are legal...

The way my friends and I handled this, before they got their LTCF, was to take two cars. Long guns in their car, Pistols in mine. Since I have a LTCF, I am legally allowed to carry handguns, even if they aren't mine, in a vehicle. And because they are in MY car, it was clear I was the one in control/possession of them.

[lildobe]

If no one has a LTCF, all handguns must be unloaded with ammunition in a seperate compartment of the case, or external to the case.

But ONLY if they are going DIRECTLY to or from one of the exempted places listed in 18PAC § 6106(b).

In this case, they are stopping for breakfast, which means they are no longer going directly to/from an exempted place, and are therefor in violation of the statute. (under my interpretation)

[P-11 shooter]

1. officer I do not consent to any searches.


While everything appears to be legit, and most likely even if they did find themselves talking to a cop chances are they'll have some common sense and nothing will happen.

However, whitefeather posted a story about a guy who took his revolver to a gunsmith to install a scope, then stopped at his sisters on the way home. He got pulled over before he made it home. I don't know what kind of assholes those cops were, but they arrested him, and threw the book at him. He ended up taking a plea bargain against his lawyers advice and it was a M! which mad him a prohibited person and he lost all his gun rights for LIFE!


Now chances are that will never happen. Most police have some kind of comon sense, but you never know. All that could have been advoided by him not telling the cop he had a legal firearm in the car. If they don't ask then you don't tell. And don't consent to any searches. I believe in common sense law enforcement and punnishment. I beleive the punnishment should fit the crime. i don't bleive in manditory sentences, and I hate it when good paople cet classified as a "criminal" or "prohibited person" and lose their rights for life.

Alot of those people are just lke you and me. They just had one bad incident and lost it all forever.

I guess to answer your question, I think by law you have to go DIRECTLY there and DIRECTLY home.

[Frenchy]

But ONLY if they are going DIRECTLY to or from one of the exempted places listed in 18PAC § 6106(b).

In this case, they are stopping for breakfast, which means they are no longer going directly to/from an exempted place, and are therefor in violation of the statute. (under my interpretation)

This is the interpretation the law has also, the exception to This I found out is a spouse owns the car and they have a LTCF, then the spouse is also covered in the car as long as they are not wearing the gun.

IE: you go to the range, come home andhave a LTCF, you do not take the guns out of the car right away, your wife takes the car to go shopping, She is protected under your LTCF in the car as long as she herself is not directly carrying on her person a gun.

[lildobe]

the exception to This I found out is a spouse owns the car and they have a LTCF, then the spouse is also covered in the car as long as they are not wearing the gun.

That IS one of the exceptions listed:

Any person who is otherwise eligible to possess a firearm under this chapter and who is operating a motor vehicle which is registered in the person's name or the name of a spouse or parent and which contains a firearm for which a valid license has been issued pursuant to section 6109 to the spouse or parent owning the firearm.

[pex]

From 18PACS6106(b) "Exceptions":

(b) Exceptions.--The provisions of subsection (a) shall not apply to:
[...]
(4) Any persons engaged in target shooting with a firearm, if such persons are at or are going to or from their places of assembly or target practice and if, while going to or from their places of assembly or target practice, the firearm is not loaded.

As mentioned elsewhere, someone could fry you on the first part of the trip for transportation of firearms, assuming the courts conclusively regard transport in a vehicle as carrying, and FOPA wasn't a usable defense (maybe the judge says not traveling interstate denies you the defense, or you've been previously told not to come onto the premise of the restaurant with firearms (must be going from any place to any place that you're legally allowed to be with a firearm).

We debate this elsewhere.

And the (partial) statue for lending firearms 18PACS6115:

>>§ 6115. Loans on, or lending or giving firearms prohibited



(a) Offense defined.--No person shall make any loan secured by mortgage, deposit or pledge of a firearm, nor, except as provided in subsection (b), shall any person lend or give a firearm to another or otherwise deliver a firearm contrary to the provisions of this subchapter.


(b) Exception.--

(1) Subsection (a) shall not apply if any of the following apply:

(i) The person who receives the firearm is licensed to carry a firearm under section 6109 (relating to licenses). [...]
(3) Nothing in this section shall be construed to prohibit the loaning or giving of a firearm to another in one's dwelling or place of business if the firearm is retained within the dwelling or place of business.

[...]

I don't know how the courts see the process for loaning a firearm. I've discussed this elsewhere and can see someone who would take issue with stopping at the restaurant calling bullshit on being able to give-back/return the firearm at the range or even if you said the give-back/return would take place at somebody's house because they might feel the exceptions say that giving back could only take place and the lender's home or place of business.

[theSaj]

It's a poorly worded law and that's the problem.

For example, you are going to a training course. It happens to be a few hours away. You have to stop for gas....

Did you just become a criminal because you pulled over for gas? Or food at McDonald's.

One should be able to make a strong case that you are actually en route. And that stopping for fuel, be it for the vehicle or the humans is within the scope of the law.

And while this may not be the judgment on the local courts. I think the state would be hard pressed to win such a case on the Supreme Court. The problem is, they know few common joe's have the $$$ to defend themselves.

IMHO, I'd rather risk standing in front of 12 of my fellows and trust to common sense than concede more rights.

[ridgerunner58]

heres how it works:

all long guns(rifles/shotguns of title 1 length) must be unloaded and ammunition in a seperate compartment of the case, or external to the case, regardless of LTCF status.

Are you sure about that?...My permit reads"Pennsylvania License To Carry Firearms"...not just handguns.Without the permit rifles and shotguns must be carried empty in the vehicle but I do not believe they must be unloaded & kept in separate compartments with a carry permit.