Keeping a round chambered

[KCJones]

If you had, you would not have made that post.

Two points he made perfectly clear which led to the assertion cops know nothing about guns.

First, guns cannot be locked, then loaded. This is impossible.

Second, guns cannot be locked, AND (MOST IMPORTANTLY) have no safety (on). This is impossible.

So your statement he quoted, he argued that the cops know nothing about guns, succinctly.

Using your recent thread is not an argument, even if in the thread title, you called it an extractor pin.

http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=317205

You're restating points of his I've never disputed and not responding to anything I said.

If you actually think that using "locked and loaded" means someone doesn't know anything about guns, I won't continue to debate the intellectually 'unarmed'.

You can have the last word on it, have at it.

[Gun]

I've been around guns for 40+ years. Grew up with them as a 'farm kid'...

Only recently did I ever get training other than grandpa saying "point it at what you want to kill and pull the trigger". That training was done by active LEO's.

Their thought on the matter? "Any cop would always carry locked & loaded, no safety." Seeing as how LEO is far more likely to actually use their firearm, has far more training than me, etc. I tend to trust their viewpoint.

This could be a mistake, though still physically impossible, can be excusable.

Either you misunderstood the trainer, or you took his word for it.

You can trust whomever. (;

[pennsylvaniaboy]

When you aren't comfortable carrying with one in the chamber.

But you are comfortable carrying a gun!? That's an oxymoron if I have ever heard one.

[mpan72]

But you are comfortable carrying a gun!? That's an oxymoron if I have ever heard one.

I don't believe that is an actual oxymoron.

[DennisH82]

Not to get into any pissing war, but locked and loaded is possible with certain weapons system since you have weapons that fire from an open bolts as well as a closed bolt. I have yet to see a handgun fire from an open bolt but I could be wrong.

[JenniferG]

If you keep one in the chamber you could shoot your eye out. I might have already posted that in this thread though.

[donotknowme]

But you are comfortable carrying a gun!? That's an oxymoron if I have ever heard one.

Some people are comfortable open-carrying and some are not. Just because they don't carry the same way doesn't mean they aren't comfortable carrying

[KCJones]

Not to get into any pissing war, but locked and loaded is possible with certain weapons system since you have weapons that fire from an open bolts as well as a closed bolt. I have yet to see a handgun fire from an open bolt but I could be wrong.

Oh you've done it now... I'm gonna piss on you so hard with... information.

Bottom line: you're right.

Seriously, after actually looking into the terminology for myself one thing pretty much all sources agree on is that "lock and load" IS the correct procedure and WAS a military command used for the M1 Garand and the many years it was in service. An M1 so treated was "locked and loaded". In fact, the procedure outlined in the manual to ready the M1 to fire is first to "lock the bolt back" then to "load a clip". http://stevespages.com/pdf/springfield_m1garand.pdf

You can also easily find, mostly on various gun-related forums, many military veterans from the M1 era who nearly universally state that "lock and load" was the command used in training and firing exercises. (I do not suspect they are en-masse lying or uniformly mis-remembering.)

Interestingly, what's often seen as an "inaccurate" quote from Full Metal Jacket, may actually be realistic:

Joker: "Sir, it is the private's duty to inform the Senior Drill Instructor that Private Pyie has a full magazine and has locked and loaded, sir!"

So although Pyle's Rifle is an M14 and it could be argued that "load and lock" is the more accurate terminology for it, M1's had persisted up through the early years of Vietnam and after such a long period of service ending so recently, the terminology "lock and load" would likely have still been the parlance. Given the film's heavy engagement of military advisors to ensure accuracy, (Kubrick was known for being obsessive about such things, and in fact "Gunny" was just an advisor before they decided he should play the drill sergeant role) it's likely the term would not have been left in if not realistic in its usage.

Some have also argued that John Wayne's famous "lock and load" quote from the Sands of Iwo Jima was a mistake, and others (I was unable to verify) state the script said "load and lock" and he changed it because it 'sounded better'. However, given that they were using M1 Garand rifles in the movie, it's equally likely that Wayne simply knew the correct (or militarily common) terminology and used it.

You may find references to "lock and load" originating in the musket era when you had to "lock" the hammer back to access the primer tray to properly "load" the musket. It's often said the term is used in a Continental Army Manual. However the only copy of it I could find only refers to "prime and load". https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Revol...r_Drill_Manual

You can find tons of debate out there. For instance MANY (and I'm talking gun owners on gun forums) suggest they understand the term primarily as "lock" the magazine in place and "load" the weapon by charging/cycling it. So despite what some (ahem) here might say, I think it's actually pretty arguable that "lock and load" is always simply wrong OR that the "lock" element invariably refers to a safety, OR that "load and lock" is invariably the correct term.

In the end, I think that "lock and load" is a) a legitimate term for popular usage which nearly all will understand to mean "ready to go" while few would recognize "load and lock" or think it a mistake b) a legitimate firearms term used in the correct context.

I do think "load and lock" is the more technically-correct term for most modern semiautomatic firearms with a manual safety, and certainly so when the intended meaning is specifically a gun that is otherwise-ready-to-fire but with the safety engaged. IF you mean loaded and with the safety engaged, than "load and lock" is the term of choice. But I can't find any authoritative source that suggests that meaning is somehow "official" and the "only correct" one. OTOH, if the intended meaning is "magazine locked in place and round chambered" then lock-and-load is the accurate terminology for that intended meaning.

It doesn't seem as though either "locked and loaded" or "loaded and locked" is typically associated with pistols. I did also find a few reference to -both- terms used on revolvers, meaning the cylinder loaded, the hammer locked back. In fact since one would typically load the cyliner before locking the hammer back, "loaded and locked" would make more sense. But this seems rather like an after-the-fact contrived usage. It's rare, it certainly doesn't apply to non-single-action revolvers, and since revolvers typically don't have safeties (yes, there are some exceptions) it doesn't 'synch up' well with the the usual "loaded and locked" definition.

So "L&L" is generally associated with auto/semi-auto weapons only. But I do think it's worth considering what terminology we would use for the many and growing semi-automatic firearms (typically striker-fire) that do not have a manual safety since "load and lock" by definition cannot describe them. There is essentially no such thing as a "loaded and locked" gun without a manual safety.

I'll risk some 'piss' on myself by pointing out that the 'commonly understood' version of lock and load: "lock the magazine in place, load the weapon by chambering a round" does in fact work for them, and it might prove useful to accept that terminology as "legit" for such guns.

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Please note: I will refuse to discuss whether the joke too often seen in bad comedies, where an asian character getting ready to party-down indicates his readiness by yelling "lock and loll!" Perhaps just bad 'chinglish' for rock 'n roll .. or perhaps some relationship to the gun terminology given the 'ready to go!' aspect of its usage in that context? One does wonder.

[STBear]

Drill Sargent in basic always said lock and load 3 rounds. I didn't bother to correct him.

[Sgt.K]

Drill Sargent in basic always said lock and load 3 rounds. I didn't bother to correct him.

Good choice...