Lackawanna Sheriff making his own rules..

[PhillyVet]

Has anyone else seen this article:

http://www.watertowndailytimes.com/n...vania-20160916

Supposedly the Lackawanna County Sheriff is claiming that in order to issue an out of state permit, the NY resident's permit must be "unrestricted" and the applicant needs to pay $135...

Neither of these requirements seem legal under 6109 - can anyone comment?

[normanvin]

I know I just got up, but doesn't unrestricted mean passed the needed checks?

[Jhaydeno]

I believe 'unrestricted' means a NY resident can carry anywhere, not just for purchase or to the range. In which case, yes, that would be valid, as PA requires a license from another state (not just a NJ FOID card) to issue a non- resident permit.

The $135 I would question... But I'll wait for those more educated to reply!

[Wilderness 1864]

Part of me says "why should we care?" NY does nothing for Non residents of NY. No reciprocity.

However, the better view is that we should be encouraging non-resident NYers to get permits here, even if it is one way for now. Perhaps we will attract some of the gun friendlies to relocate to this state, as a way of resisting the flood of the urban anti gun zealots that dominate NY politics who come here and try to make us like them. Also, it might help some day to get a system in place to allow PA residents to carry in NY if we are already doing it for them. Wishful thinking? Perhaps. But helping everyone exercise their 2nd Amendment rights ought to be the goal.

[Statkowski]

Almost all references to LTCF acquisition in Lackawanna County, according to the county's official website, is absent except for: "Yeah, we issue them." & "Here's our phone and fax numbers."

No paper trail of misleading information, no on-line application form such as other counties offer, nothing, nada, zilch.

[SigForLife]

The $135 I would question... But I'll wait for those more educated to reply!

The fee is clearly unlawful. As provided for by 18 Pa.C.S. 6109(h):

(h) Fee.

(1) In addition to fees described in paragraphs (2)(ii) and (3), the fee for a license to carry a firearm is $ 19. This includes all of the following:
(i) A renewal notice processing fee of $ 1.50.
(ii) An administrative fee of $ 5 under section 14(2) of the act of July 6, 1984 (P.L.614, No.127), known as the Sheriff Fee Act.

(2)
(i) The Pennsylvania Commission on Crime and Delinquency shall implement, within five years of the effective date of this paragraph, a system in conjunction with the Pennsylvania State Police and the Pennsylvania Sheriffs’ Association to standardize and modernize the process of issuing licenses to carry firearms. Upon implementation of the system under this paragraph, the Pennsylvania Commission on Crime and Delinquency shall publish notice thereof in the Pennsylvania Bulletin.
(ii) An additional temporary fee of $ 5 shall be remitted by the sheriff to the Firearms License to Carry Modernization Account, which is hereby established as a special restricted receipt account within the General Fund of the State Treasury. Moneys and investment income in the account shall be awarded as grants to sheriffs to implement the system, including grants to reimburse sheriffs for expenses incurred prior to the effective date of this paragraph.
(iii) Moneys credited to the account and any investment income accrued are hereby appropriated on a continuing basis to the Pennsylvania Commission on Crime and Delinquency. The commission shall establish procedures related to the application process for and distribution of funds to sheriffs under this paragraph. Notwithstanding the provisions of subparagraph (ii), the commission may withhold annually an amount not exceeding 5% of the funds credited to the account in that fiscal year for the cost to implement the system under subparagraph (i) and for administrative costs directly related to the responsibilities of the commission under this paragraph.
(iv) This paragraph shall expire five years after its effective date. Any surplus funds remaining in the account established in subparagraph (ii) at such time shall lapse into the General Fund.

(3) An additional fee of $ 1 shall be paid by the applicant for a license to carry a firearm and shall be remitted by the sheriff to the Firearms License Validation System Account, which is hereby established as a special restricted receipt account within the General Fund of the State Treasury. The account shall be used for purposes under subsection (l). Moneys credited to the account and any investment income accrued are hereby appropriated on a continuing basis to the Pennsylvania State Police.

(4) No fee other than that provided by this subsection or the Sheriff Fee Act may be assessed by the sheriff for the performance of any background check made pursuant to this act.

(5) The fee is payable to the sheriff to whom the application is submitted and is payable at the time of application for the license.

(6) Except for the administrative fee of $ 5 under section 14(2) of the Sheriff Fee Act, all other fees shall be refunded if the application is denied but shall not be refunded if a license is issued and subsequently revoked.

(7) A person who sells or attempts to sell a license to carry a firearm for a fee in excess of the amounts fixed under this subsection commits a summary offense.

[HXD]

I believe 'unrestricted' means a NY resident can carry anywhere, not just for purchase or to the range.

This is correct. In New York, our permits are issued by County Court judges. Many judges will place administrative restrictions on permits they issue. Hunting, target shooting, and employment are among the most common restrictions. New York State Penal Law makes no provision for these restrictions, however their existence has been upheld and is now case law. Most of the counties outside the cities (Buffalo, Syracuse, Albany, NYC region) issue permits with restrictions. Once you get outside those areas, restrictions are less common. St Lawrence County (from the article) is one of the outliers.

Many New Yorkers have tried applying for a Pennsylvania LTC with a restricted NYS Pistol Permit and have been either instructed to not bother or have been denied. This is not just limited to Lackawanna County - this has been the case with many of the PA/NY border counties.

However, the better view is that we should be encouraging non-resident NYers to get permits here, even if it is one way for now. Perhaps we will attract some of the gun friendlies to relocate to this state, as a way of resisting the flood of the urban anti gun zealots that dominate NY politics who come here and try to make us like them. Also, it might help some day to get a system in place to allow PA residents to carry in NY if we are already doing it for them. Wishful thinking? Perhaps. But helping everyone exercise their 2nd Amendment rights ought to be the goal.

I, for one, appreciate this view. There really are hundreds of thousands of freedom-loving people living here in New York. Unfortunately, we're in a position where nearly 50% of the state's population is packed in an area that is geographically 1% of the state. The tail is truly wagging the dog. Those of us who are still left are fighting like hell to reinstate the Constitution up here.

[Bluto Blutarsky]

I'm under the impression that the Centre County Sheriff has issued non resident LTCF's to NY'ers with restricted carry permits like hunting/target carry only; if I'm not mistaken the PA statute says that the applicant must have a "pistol permit" in his/her home state - not specifically a concealed carry permit. A friend of mine in one of the communist NY counties next to NYC has such a permit and managed to get a PA LTCF from that specific sheriff. I don't know if this is still the case, but it's an option that might be worth exploring for NY'ers with less than unrestricted carry permits who want to apply for a PA LTCF.

[Statkowski]

§ 6109. Licenses.
(e) Issuance of license.--
(1) A license to carry a firearm shall be for the purpose of carrying a firearm concealed on or about one's person or in a vehicle and shall be issued if, after an investigation not to exceed 45 days, it appears that the applicant is an individual concerning whom no good cause exists to deny the license. A license shall not be issued to any of the following:
(ix) A resident of another state who does not possess a current license or permit or similar document to carry a firearm issued by that state if a license is provided for by the laws of that state, as published annually in the Federal Register by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms of the Department of the Treasury under 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(19) (relating to definitions).

Just to muddy the waters a little bit, Section 6109 (which covers the issuance of licenses) states the sheriff will not issue one to an out-of-stater if they don't have a license to carry. Is a New York permit with a restriction a license to carry?

I fear the only way to resolve the issue would be one of two ways:
a. Amend the law to recognize any and all licenses from the other 49 states, whether they have (possibly unlegal) restrictions or not.
b. Get a declaratory judgement from a Commonwealth court. Of course, this would require a New Yorker who was refused a Pa. LTCF due to restrictions (you can't take action without "standing").

[Bluto Blutarsky]

Is a New York permit with a restriction a license to carry?

Yes, it's a license to carry, but the permit holder can only carry within the restrictions noted on the permit, such as to and from the range, while hunting, at one's place of business, or while working as a security guard. Such nonsense is one of the reasons I left NY.

One or two NY counties (Dutchess is one of them) only issue unrestricted permits. I know only a handful of people in NY that have unrestricted carry permits, as it's a long and frustrating process. It's my understanding that most counties north of Rockland except the major upstate cities are essentially "will most likely issue," but nothing is certain.