Gunsmith Reporting Requirements ???

[Xringshooter]

One must remember that the term "firearm" is defined several different ways in both the PA UFA and the Federal regulations. IIRC, there is a sticky on the forum about the definition of the word "Firearm".

Here is the federal definition of a GUNSMITH: A person who devotes time, attention and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principle objective of livelihood and profit, but such a term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks or trigger mechanisms to firearms.

Here is the federal definition of FIREARM: Any weapon, including a starter gun, which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive; the frame or receiver of any such weapon; any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or any destructive device; but the term shall not include an antique firearm. In the case of a licensed collector, the term shall mean only curios and relics. (Notice there is nothing specific about long arms, handguns, etc.)

Also, I don't believe the charging of money to do gunsmithing is a factor in whether or not a "gunsmith" has to have a license. As the above definition says "livelihood and profit" and as such, bartering gunsmithing services for something other than currency is still "profit".

The other sticking point is the wording "occasional repairs". Who makes the determination what "occasional" repairs are? (Hmmm, maybe the BATFE?) I can just about guarantee that if the "occasional" gunsmith is approached by the BATFE and told to get a license or cease operation, they will not win ANY argument with the ATF because if they come to you, they will not consider what you are doing as "occasional gunsmithing". Do you want to go to court against the BATFE to argue your definition of an "occasional repair"? You might win, but at what monetary cost?

[1st8th83]

What happens when you take a gun (AR for example) that you assembled yourself and has no serial numbers to a gunsmith? How do they log that weapon?

[MasonArmsGunsmithing]

As far as I know, any firearm built by an individual that does not have the standard marking (serial number, make, model) can not be left at a gunsmithing shop for repair. I have not run across anyone bringing one in to my shop, so I am not 100% sure, but I would imagine that is the answer you would get from the ATF.

[Bang]

A typical example of how legislators and regulations writers cannot think of everything.

Does a gunsmith take possession of a firearm in the same fashion as a transfer from one owner to another? I don't think so.

I leave my car for my mechanic to work on, the title doesn't get transferred or even placed in abeyance.

If I am allowed to make a firearm and it needs the work of a gunsmith, why does the temporary possession of the firearm by the gunsmith trigger the need for something I am not required to have?

It's just another example of useless nonsense having nothing to do with criminal use of guns or any affect on it.

Here's one for you. I plan on placing my legally unmarked self-produced handgun in a gunsmith's hands, and the gunsmith needs required markings to book the transaction. I attach a plate having the required markings to the gun. When I get the gun back, and get home, I remove the plate. I am now in possession of my handgun that requires no markings.

Have fun^^^ if that peaks any interest.

[MasonArmsGunsmithing]

Here's one for you. I plan on placing my legally unmarked self-produced handgun in a gunsmith's hands, and the gunsmith needs required markings to book the transaction. I attach a plate having the required markings to the gun. When I get the gun back, and get home, I remove the plate. I am now in possession of my handgun that requires no markings.

Ok so there would be a few issues with this. The first being, I would imagine if you produce a firearm, and than mark it with manufacturer model and serial number, you are technically in the business of firearms manufacturing, which would require a lot of licensing and registration. The second issue is attaching a plate to the gun with the info, the serial number would need to be permanently attached to the firearm, that being said you could always make the markings permanent, than remove them in some other fashion. Criminals do it to legal guns all the time, this brings me to the third issue, if you went through all of the hoops to make this a legal gun with all the markings, removing them would than be super illegal......

Basically there are a lot of laws that we have that are absolutely insane. Just look into what the ATF considers manufacturing of a firearm. Something as simple as muzzle threading is now considered manufacturing. I am simply modifying an already existing firearm. However, if this is the business a person chooses, that person must follow the laws and regulations, if they want any type of job security.

[39flathead]

Do pre '68 .22's without serial numbers still get logged in as NSN?

Wouldn't the same apply to home made guns?

[MasonArmsGunsmithing]

That is an interesting thought. We log those in as none under serial number. I believe the actual law has the line drawn by date as to what is OK without a serial number and what is not. So I would imagine that a modern homemade gun would not fall under that category.

[39flathead]

That is an interesting thought. We log those in as none under serial number. I believe the actual law has the line drawn by date as to what is OK without a serial number and what is not. So I would imagine that a modern homemade gun would not fall under that category.

How could you know if say a homemade 1911 is "modern"?

[MasonArmsGunsmithing]

Lack of markings would be a big one. Unless there is some 1911 that was made a long time ago with absolutely zero markings on it, and you could convince a gunsmith that the one he is looking at happens to be that one, it would be a longshot.

[Xringshooter]

Lack of markings has no bearing on a firearm made by an individual. However, it needs to have been completed and functional at one point. In other words, they are not bringing you an incomplete receiver to turn into a firearm for the first time (in that case you would be manufacturing the firearm and that's a whole different set of rules).

To log it in, the owner is the maker, for the model you can use a common nomenclature (1911, AR-15, etc.), NSN (no serial number), and the caliber. Do the work, collect your fee and return it to the owner.

Also, just FYI, there is no federal law that requires a non-licensee maker to mark the firearm in any way before selling it unless they are building and selling these as a business and in that case they must be at least an 07 FFL and get involved with the FAET and other sorts of things. If it is a handgun, the sale, at least here in PA, would have to go through a FFL to do the transfer and the FFL would fill out the SP4-113 the same way as they logged it into their bound book. I have done this once and had no questions from the PSP Firearms Unit after submitting the SP4-113.

I've worked on several 1911's and AR's that were made from 80% frames/receivers and that's how I've logged them in and at my last inspection the BATFE inspector had no questions about how I did it (I do annotate some additional info in a block for remarks in my gunsmithing log book and the work card so there are no questions).