Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #11
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    Default Re: PA to Consider Replacing PICS with NICS

    I've never had a problem with PICS but I have almost been falsely arrested and beaten by a former FBI agent.

    The Feds are not our friends.

  2. #12
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    Default Re: PA to Consider Replacing PICS with NICS

    NICS's appeal process is a no-go for me. They are severely backlogged, and now are not processing appeals. There is no recourse for someone who is denied, even if you aren't prohibited. If you think the PSP is bad about denials, just wait until you're denied by the FBI.

    Even before the shutdown of the appeal process, it would take several months to get a reversal. ....the PSP on the other hand, 2 to 8 weeks - typically in the 2 to 4 week range.

    NICS is not the answer. The only benefit that PA residents will see with this bill is the elimination of the RoS. Going from PICS to NICS is a major step back.

    PICS's faults can be fixed. NICS's faults aren't likely to be fixed, if anything - they would likely get worse.
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot, dregan, Frenchy, Fragger, ungawa.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: PA to Consider Replacing PICS with NICS

    As others have noted, we can separate the ROS database from PICS very easily; eliminating the ROSD is a red herring used to sell the bad idea of also killing PICS, which is good for nobody except lawyers who can bill a lot more hours fighting a wrongful NICS denial than a PICS denial.

    Dr. John Lott says that the NICS "false positive" rate is over 99%, based on the government's own numbers. I would assume that the false negative rate is comparable, if the same bad data is being sifted by the same employees.
    http://johnrlott.blogspot.com/2011/0...to-defend.html

    It's not a good thing that your gun purchase may proceed after 3 days if NICS can't reach a decision. That means that some percentage of prohibited persons will get their guns, and when NICS finally gets its act together and determines that he should have been denied, he's now a "prohibited person in possession of a firearm" instead of "a prohibited person who filled out a form at an FFL". That person is much more likely to get a visit from LEO's, and those frequently go badly, and generate a lot more billable hours for lawyers practicing in this field.

    The defense to that, I suppose, is that so many of the denials are in error that the guy getting his gun by default after 3 days probably isn't really prohibited. Two problems with that; (1) he's still going to get that SWAT visit to retrieve the gun, and (2) that's not exactly a selling point for using NICS instead of PICS, is it?

    Fundamentally, I'm one of 12,000,000 Pennsylvania residents, and Pennsylvania has a huge 2nd Amendment fanbase. Our state Legislature knows that. By contrast, I'm one of 325,000,0000 Americans, and the average enthusiasm across the USA for gun rights is so low as to allow Hillary to remain viable as a Presidential candidate while espousing draconian restrictions on gun rights. I like our local control over PICS.

    The cost factor is laughable. $120 million since 1998? Big deal, that works out to 50 cents per resident per year. Seriously, THAT is your price for surrendering more power to the Feds? Fifty pennies per resident? Like Groucho Marx famously stated, that settles the question over whether you're a whore, after that we're just haggling over price.
    Last edited by GunLawyer001; June 5th, 2016 at 01:26 PM.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Thanks to all who attended my Firearms Law Workshops this year!

  4. #14
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    Default Re: PA to Consider Replacing PICS with NICS

    Quote Originally Posted by SigForLife View Post
    I think you may be confused, as absent a response from NICS, PICS will not approve and every time NICS is down, PICS is down. Furthermore, PICS is down every time that PennDOT or PICS is down. Accordingly, PICS is down FAR more than NICS. Just ask any PA FFL. Furthermore, under NICS, if an FFL does not receive a deny in 3 days, they can proceed with the transfer, unlike with PICS. While neither are perfect, when FBI has audited PICS, they raised constitutional concerns over how it is being implemented and PSP's position that if it cannot determine whether someone is prohibited, they are denied as being prohibited. FBI (correctly) believes that is unconstitutional, since you are denying a constitutional right without evidence that you are prohibited. And then there is the $7 million that we, the taxpayers, are paying for PICS, PLUS the background check fee every time you purchase a firearm.
    I disagree. My experience with NICS has been horrible. I will let PA keep control of the system rather than the federal government. You can support whatever you like chief

  5. #15
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    Default Re: PA to Consider Replacing PICS with NICS

    This is nonsense. PICs uses the federal database. If NIC is down PICS is down

  6. #16
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    Default Re: PA to Consider Replacing PICS with NICS

    You're also delusional if you think dealers are going to stop charging $5, $8, $10, $15 or $20 PICS fee if they switch to NICS.
    AMERICA'S PUSSY = GRABBED

  7. #17
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    Default Re: PA to Consider Replacing PICS with NICS

    Quote Originally Posted by LBaker View Post
    This is nonsense. PICs uses the federal database. If NIC is down PICS is down
    Hardly nonsense. Both systems require the operator to send queries out when an arrest record pops up without a disposition, and that's what causes the delays, waiting for county court employees to dig up records and forward them to the operator; both systems require discretion and judgment; both are subject to political pressure. PICS is not an extra layer that could be eliminated, it's an alternative system between Pennsylvanians and the federal government, it replaces Justice Department employees with PSP employees, who are much more directly answerable to Pennsylvania residents.

    Many rational, patriotic people prefer local government to central government; the Framers, for example. I don't see a lot of evidence that "if you want real efficiency, go to the people who run the VA hospitals and the Post Office."

    To pretend that this boils down to just one dimension is incorrect; both systems are up most of the time. To keep confusing the issue by telling people that we can only rid ourselves of the ROSD by killing PICS, is just a lie.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Thanks to all who attended my Firearms Law Workshops this year!

  8. #18
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    Default Re: PA to Consider Replacing PICS with NICS

    Greetings,

    Thank you! All points that I was going to make.

    1. PICs can be updated and made more accommodating AND cost effective.
    2. The illegal ROS can be gotten rid of.
    3. We can go back to the option of PA-LTCF = completed sale with only minor text changes in the laws.

    I DO NOT trust the feds at all. The corrupt DOJ conspired to leverage "staff re-assignments" against the ability to appeal NICs denials so they can get the increased personnel levels the president wants. Their only care is to deny as many sales as possible, leaving them all stuck in limbo.

    As bad as that is now, what kind of DOJ will exist if HC is elected? How friendly will they be to gun sales? Keep control local, where we have a voice.

    Regards, Jim


    Quote Originally Posted by knight0334 View Post
    NICS's appeal process is a no-go for me. They are severely backlogged, and now are not processing appeals. There is no recourse for someone who is denied, even if you aren't prohibited. If you think the PSP is bad about denials, just wait until you're denied by the FBI.

    Even before the shutdown of the appeal process, it would take several months to get a reversal. ....the PSP on the other hand, 2 to 8 weeks - typically in the 2 to 4 week range.

    NICS is not the answer. The only benefit that PA residents will see with this bill is the elimination of the RoS. Going from PICS to NICS is a major step back.

    PICS's faults can be fixed. NICS's faults aren't likely to be fixed, if anything - they would likely get worse.

  9. #19
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    Default Re: PA to Consider Replacing PICS with NICS

    Quote Originally Posted by jim-analog View Post
    Greetings,

    Thank you! All points that I was going to make.

    1. PICs can be updated and made more accommodating AND cost effective.
    2. The illegal ROS can be gotten rid of.
    3. We can go back to the option of PA-LTCF = completed sale with only minor text changes in the laws.

    I DO NOT trust the feds at all. The corrupt DOJ conspired to leverage "staff re-assignments" against the ability to appeal NICs denials so they can get the increased personnel levels the president wants. Their only care is to deny as many sales as possible, leaving them all stuck in limbo.

    As bad as that is now, what kind of DOJ will exist if HC is elected? How friendly will they be to gun sales? Keep control local, where we have a voice.

    Regards, Jim
    Certainly a good point, that Hillary could be elected. If that happened, but we still had a Republican majority in either house, we could avoid new gun restrictions in statutes; but Hillary would be able to affect NICS with Executive Orders, like their little test run in de-staffing the appeals.

    PICS will always have to enforce both Pennsylvania laws and federal laws, but it will be beyond the reach of Hillary's EO's. That kind of insurance, for just 50 cents per Pennsylvanian per year, seems like a tremendous bargain.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Thanks to all who attended my Firearms Law Workshops this year!

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
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    Quakertown, Pennsylvania
    (Bucks County)
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    Default Re: PA to Consider Replacing PICS with NICS

    If I'm not mistaken FOAC are the ones pushing this the hardest, supposedly in the name of PA gun owners.

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