Proper Private Selling Procedure [Face to Face]

[David III]

I understand Pa, law when it comes to selling handguns/long guns privately.

I am meeting someone at their local FFL to do a handgun transfer because they are buying a handgun from me.

We agreed on a certain price, I am not concerned about the deal, I just want to know what is the professional way to do a private transaction.

The obvious is we meet at the local FFL.

How should the money be handled. Should the buyer simply hand over the money before going into the FFL, or is it more proper for the buyer to hand over the money in front of the FFL?

I didn't know if it is improper for someone to make a deal right in front of a FFL or not and don't want to look disrespectful or unprofessional.

I have never sold a firearm privately so this is my first time, I tried to google it but could not find anything helpful.

* I am basically just curious when the money should be handed over to me as the seller, should it be outside of the FFL or should it be inside.

One last thing, the guy who is purchasing the firearm said he would print out a form and pre-fill it out and let the FFL know we are coming.

When he says "Print and pre-fill the form" does that mean he is able to simply fill in aspects of the form prior to the FFL giving him one?

I always thought it was the FFL who gave the form and didn't know you could do such a thing.

[bortle]

It's none of the FFL's concern what the price is/was. He's just getting his fee for the transfer. (who's paying for that?)
He can print out anything he wants, but the FFL will give both of you the correct legal forms to fill out.

[gghbi]

In my experience, either way, you meet at the FFL, exchange greetings, and then there is a 'final inspection' where the buyer looks to see that the item is as represented in the ad. This may include checking lock up, bore, overall condition, trigger and action, or more. Once this is satisfactory, then payment is concluded and you go into the FFL for the transfer. Payment can be done inside the FFL, but most of my exchanges have been done before entering. The money transfer is not of concern to the FFL and should be handled discreetly if done inside.

As the seller of a handgun, you will have to provide ID to the FFL and will fill out and sign the bottom section of the PA state police form. Normally the buyer pays the transfer unless other arrangements have been made. The buyer may have a Federal 4473 form that he has pre-filled if the FFL allows it.

Good luck, I hope your deal goes well. The biggest danger is that you will now have money and be in a gun store with all those tempting goodies!

[David III]

Yea, the buyer already said he will pay the transfer fee.

The 4473 form I know as a buyer is very easy, however I am kind of confused on the seller section of that form.

I googled the form and there is a section that is suppose to be for the seller, but at the same time it ask questions about the NICS check and questions about your FFL license.

I mean, I'm sure I'll figure it out when I get there, but the seller section looks confusing because I cannot tell if those questions are ment to be answered purely by the seller or by the FFL who is the 3rd party between the sale.

I'll give you an example: It ask simple questions like your Full Name, ect, but then it the same section it starts asking about questions that would NOT apply to me, like my FFL.

So I am confused on how that section is for the seller (me) yet its asking for my FFL implying I have to have one to fill that section out in the first place....

I'm sure the FFL will explain it better, I just through it looks very confusing.

[eatmydust]

And . . . Depending on the venue that you used for contact, being armed is not a bad idea at all.

[Xringshooter]

Since this is a handgun transfer:

One; A typical FFL does not care when the money part of the transaction happens. That's between the seller and the buyer. I've had it happen in the shop after the buyer passed the PICS and other times I had no idea when the money changed hands. FFL's don't need to get involved in that part of the transaction.

Two; The seller will give the handgun to the FFL so he can fill in his acquisition records (the bound book used for doing this) and to fill in the required information on the ATF and PSP paperwork. At that point it time the handgun belongs to the FFL.

Three; The paperwork (ATF 4473 and the PSP SP4-113) is handled by the FFL, his 4473's are serial numbered (by the FFL for his records) and the SP4-113 is serial numbered and controlled by the PSP so the buyer could not have one in advance. If the buyer filled out a 4473 in advance, the FFL may or may not accept it. In a private FTF transaction both the seller and the buyer have parts on the SP4-113 they have to fill out.

Four; After the Seller and Buyer fill out the paperwork, the FFL does the background check on the buyer (PICS). If all ok, then the FFL gets paid his fee and hands the gun over to the buyer and the transaction is complete as far as he is concerned.

If the buyer does not pass the background check (denied), then more happens. The main result is that the seller gets the handgun back only after he passes the background check. The scenerios and possible permutations of a denial during a private sale can get so involved I'm not even going into all of them here. (and it does happen but not as often as people think).

Some people will advocate the seller not giving the gun to the FFL until the background check is completed so that if the buyer is denied, the seller does not have to do a background check to get his gun back. That's all well and good and if you read the instructions of the 4473 (Section D), it seems that it could be done, and the instructions for the SP4-113 do not state when the firearm info is to be filled out, but I believe you would be hard pressed to find an FFL that will do a transfer that way. Typically a FFL will want the forms filled out in their entirety before going to the next step (calling PICS). FFL's are a suspicious bunch and they have every right to be, if they screw something up or get caught doing something that the ATF deems not correct, they could lose their license and thus their livelihood so I doubt they would do it that way. I've never had a seller ask to do it that way but if I did, that request might raise a red flag for me to think about.

Also, if the buyer fails the background check and the FFL has nothing in his bound book, he will still have to file the denial paperwork with the PSP and store the 4473 and his copy of the SP4-113 showing the denial in his files and if there is nothing in his bound book when he is inspected by the ATF he would have to explain why he didn't log the handgun. I don't know if I would want to try to explain that to them.

[imashooter2]

As a matter of principle, I would not conduct my business in someone else's store. Our business is concluded off premises and then we enter the shop for the transfer. It would be prudent to meet in a location where the buyer can discretely examine the gun without alarming passers by.

As the seller going through an FFL, you have virtually zero risk. The FFL will ensure that any required paperwork is produced and correctly filled out.

[GunLawyer001]

Since this is a handgun transfer:

One; A typical FFL does not care when the money part of the transaction happens. That's between the seller and the buyer. I've had it happen in the shop after the buyer passed the PICS and other times I had no idea when the money changed hands. FFL's don't need to get involved in that part of the transaction.

Two; The seller will give the handgun to the FFL so he can fill in his acquisition records (the bound book used for doing this) and to fill in the required information on the ATF and PSP paperwork. At that point it time the handgun belongs to the FFL.

Three; The paperwork (ATF 4473 and the PSP SP4-113) is handled by the FFL, his 4473's are serial numbered (by the FFL for his records) and the SP4-113 is serial numbered and controlled by the PSP so the buyer could not have one in advance. If the buyer filled out a 4473 in advance, the FFL may or may not accept it. In a private FTF transaction both the seller and the buyer have parts on the SP4-113 they have to fill out.

Four; After the Seller and Buyer fill out the paperwork, the FFL does the background check on the buyer (PICS). If all ok, then the FFL gets paid his fee and hands the gun over to the buyer and the transaction is complete as far as he is concerned.

If the buyer does not pass the background check (denied), then more happens. The main result is that the seller gets the handgun back only after he passes the background check. The scenerios and possible permutations of a denial during a private sale can get so involved I'm not even going into all of them here. (and it does happen but not as often as people think).

Some people will advocate the seller not giving the gun to the FFL until the background check is completed so that if the buyer is denied, the seller does not have to do a background check to get his gun back. That's all well and good and if you read the instructions of the 4473 (Section D), it seems that it could be done, and the instructions for the SP4-113 do not state when the firearm info is to be filled out, but I believe you would be hard pressed to find an FFL that will do a transfer that way. Typically a FFL will want the forms filled out in their entirety before going to the next step (calling PICS). FFL's are a suspicious bunch and they have every right to be, if they screw something up or get caught doing something that the ATF deems not correct, they could lose their license and thus their livelihood so I doubt they would do it that way. I've never had a seller ask to do it that way but if I did, that request might raise a red flag for me to think about.

Also, if the buyer fails the background check and the FFL has nothing in his bound book, he will still have to file the denial paperwork with the PSP and store the 4473 and his copy of the SP4-113 showing the denial in his files and if there is nothing in his bound book when he is inspected by the ATF he would have to explain why he didn't log the handgun. I don't know if I would want to try to explain that to them.

I personally wouldn't advise any FFL to run any PICS check until he (a) has entered the firearm into his bound book and physically taken custody of it, and (b) received his transfer fee in cash. You want to discourage people from testing the waters to see if the govt knows about that thing that happened that one time. You want the buyer and seller to have skin in the game. And most importantly, you want to keep the ATF and PSP happy so that you can remain a happy capitalist and stay in business.

If the buyer fails PICS, LEO's will want the completed 4473 and the state form. They will be interested in what happened to the firearm, and you'd better not tell them that you handed it back to the seller without a PICS check on the seller.

It's illegal for an FFL to run a PICS check for any purpose other than transferring a firearm, so the firearm is a critical piece of the dynamic.

And for basic business reasons, if the FFL is going to be charged the PICS fee pass or fail, then the FFL needs to get that fee (plus any transfer fee he charges) up front, while he has some leverage. Buyers who fail PICS are unmotivated to pay fees for that experience. It also helps to have an obvious sign, "transfers $XX, pass or fail", the way that car inspection stations often do, after many years of experience.

[Democrat Gun Owner]

I have an ethical question about a hypothetical situation., and I'm interested in opinions.

I agree the FFL has to log a firearm into his/her "book" and then transfer it to the buyer. Say the charge for such a transfer is $25. If I sell someone a handgun for $450, and he fails PICS. I'm assuming the FFL has the right to charge me $25 to get my own gun back because someone else failed a PICS check. Is this right?

If so and assuming I've already collected the $450 from the buyer, would it be problematic for me to only return $425?

I personally wouldn't advise any FFL to run any PICS check until he (a) has entered the firearm into his bound book and physically taken custody of it, and (b) received his transfer fee in cash. You want to discourage people from testing the waters to see if the govt knows about that thing that happened that one time. You want the buyer and seller to have skin in the game. And most importantly, you want to keep the ATF and PSP happy so that you can remain a happy capitalist and stay in business.

If the buyer fails PICS, LEO's will want the completed 4473 and the state form. They will be interested in what happened to the firearm, and you'd better not tell them that you handed it back to the seller without a PICS check on the seller.

It's illegal for an FFL to run a PICS check for any purpose other than transferring a firearm, so the firearm is a critical piece of the dynamic.

And for basic business reasons, if the FFL is going to be charged the PICS fee pass or fail, then the FFL needs to get that fee (plus any transfer fee he charges) up front, while he has some leverage. Buyers who fail PICS are unmotivated to pay fees for that experience. It also helps to have an obvious sign, "transfers $XX, pass or fail", the way that car inspection stations often do, after many years of experience.

[Carnes]

Interesting. I think the legal part is pretty well spelled out (thank you Xring and GL). What about the etiquette? What's your ideal person to person transfer look like (buyer, seller, or FFL)?