Incorrect FFL transfer

[GunLawyer001]

So after calling numerous FFL's, I actually sought out for some legal counsel.

So this is what the guy told me. He said that there is no national registration of firearms; nor does PA keep any record of firearms registration. Even if I do a FFL transfer the pistol to myself, all the paperwork that was used to "transfer" is destroyed within 90 days as the federal and state government cannot keep a record.

FFL transfers and PICS only checks if I am eligible to own a firearm. That's it. Nothing more. So whether I go to the gunshop to put it on consignment or to go to FFL to transfer my gun to myself, it does not "register" the gun back to me.

I asked the legal counsel if FFL or PICS checks if the gun is "clean." He said, "no." The only way to do that is if I contact law enforcement and have them run the serial number through the national database for stolen or guns used in a crime. I told him that I have a family member who is a cop. I am 100% certain that my pistols are clean.

So... back to my original topic. My problem will neither be resolved through putting the gun as consignment nor doing a FFL transfer.

The legal counsel's advice: Just keep the pistol and do nothing!

I told him that I am planning to carry this as one of my backup concealed pistol. I asked him, "If I somehow end up using this to defend myself, would I get into trouble?" His answer is most likely not (as long as it is not stolen or used in a previous crime). They can contact the manufacture and trace the gun to a gun store in Maryland who sold to my uncle. And that would be the end of the paper trail. Even if he "transferred" it to my dad, that record would not exist as there is no registration/gun database. As long as this gun is not stolen or used in a crime, he said it is not big of a deal.

Is he right? I do not know.

I want to get to the bottom of this. I am calling my local ATF office this week.

The PA State Police maintain a "Record of Sale Database", consisting of the data from every handgun transfer through a Pennsylvania FFL, going back decades. Local cops routinely pretend that this is a gun registry, and they routinely seize guns that aren't "registered" to you in there. They shouldn't, but they do.

Further, the paper trail can be used as evidence to help prove that a particular gun did not end up in your hands legally.

Finally, if a gun is recovered in the woods or from a criminal, having it "registered" helps you to get it back.

I'd be interested in knowing who told you otherwise.

[moseschi]

The PA State Police maintain a "Record of Sale Database", consisting of the data from every handgun transfer through a Pennsylvania FFL, going back decades. Local cops routinely pretend that this is a gun registry, and they routinely seize guns that aren't "registered" to you in there. They shouldn't, but they do.

Further, the paper trail can be used as evidence to help prove that a particular gun did not end up in your hands legally.

Finally, if a gun is recovered in the woods or from a criminal, having it "registered" helps you to get it back.

I'd be interested in knowing who told you otherwise.

Wait, then what happens if someone who purchased a firearm while they were residing in another state moves into PA? All their firearms will not be in the PA database. How can they prove that a weapon in my possession was obtained legally or illegally? All but one firearm in my possession was purchased while I was residing in PA.

So if I just do a FFL transfer from myself to myself, PA state police will have it in their record as me transferring to myself the weapon? How does this help me in my situation? Doesn't this raise more red flag when PA state police looks up my serial number to my 2 pistols I got from my dad?

[GunLawyer001]

Wait, then what happens if someone who purchased a firearm while they were residing in another state moves into PA? All their firearms will not be in the PA database. How can they prove that a weapon in my possession was obtained legally or illegally? All but one firearm in my possession was purchased while I was residing in PA.

So if I just do a FFL transfer from myself to myself, PA state police will have it in their record as me transferring to myself the weapon? How does this help me in my situation? Doesn't this raise more red flag when PA state police looks up my serial number to my 2 pistols I got from my dad?

It does happen that someone is found with a firearm for which the PSP has no record. Sometimes they get it back, sometimes they don't. But it's fairly routine practice for local cops to seize guns during a stop, then run the serial numbers to see if (a) they're listed as stolen, and (b) they are "registered" to the person stopped.

If you do a transfer from yourself to the FFL and back to yourself, the dispatcher will only tell the cop that it comes back to (your name) as the most recent transferee.

It would not be enough for a prosecution that a gun is not connected to the possessor in the ROS Database, but too many people helpfully add to that by confessing to an unlawful transfer. And once the cops have your gun, the burden is on you (in any return of property petition) to establish your right to possess that gun. Without a receipt, or the ROSD on your side, that's sometimes a problem.

[birdwooddog]

The reason I like the idea of a "ffl transfer from OP to OP" is it gets OP a piece of paper that says I took possession of gun on date xx/xx
Although, if used in a self defense shooting, not sure a piece of paper would mean much

[GunLawyer001]

The reason I like the idea of a "ffl transfer from OP to OP" is it gets OP a piece of paper that says I took possession of gun on date xx/xx
Although, if used in a self defense shooting, not sure a piece of paper would mean much

It might mean a lot, when establishing ". . . who is not in illegal possession of a firearm. . ."

[R L Suehr]

Here's my thoughts on this. Myself I don't carry any guns that I haven't personally bought. I know that there is not supposed to be a gun registry in PA, but until people stop having issues with getting there guns occasionally confiscated and having to spend mucho dinero to get them back when they don't pop up in the ROS database that's my policy. I also wouldn't carry a gun that was passed down to me or that had any sentimental value. If you have to use it in a self defense situation, there's a good chance that you aren't getting it back.

My recommendation is if it has meaning to you at all, don't carry it. The transfer to you from your father was legal, so I wouldn't bother trying to "register" it either. Appreciate it and shoot it at the range. Some day it'll be a good memory of your dad and uncle, when that is all you have of them. Buy a different back up to carry. There's a shit ton of decently priced small pistols that can serve that role. Then there's no worries about registering anything, it'll be in your name.

[ray h]

So after calling numerous FFL's, I actually sought out for some legal counsel.

So this is what the guy told me. He said that there is no national registration of firearms; nor does PA keep any record of firearms registration. Even if I do a FFL transfer the pistol to myself, all the paperwork that was used to "transfer" is destroyed within 90 days as the federal and state government cannot keep a record.

FFL transfers and PICS only checks if I am eligible to own a firearm. That's it. Nothing more. So whether I go to the gunshop to put it on consignment or to go to FFL to transfer my gun to myself, it does not "register" the gun back to me.

I asked the legal counsel if FFL or PICS checks if the gun is "clean." He said, "no." The only way to do that is if I contact law enforcement and have them run the serial number through the national database for stolen or guns used in a crime. I told him that I have a family member who is a cop. I am 100% certain that my pistols are clean.

So... back to my original topic. My problem will neither be resolved through putting the gun as consignment nor doing a FFL transfer.

The legal counsel's advice: Just keep the pistol and do nothing!

I told him that I am planning to carry this as one of my backup concealed pistol. I asked him, "If I somehow end up using this to defend myself, would I get into trouble?" His answer is most likely not (as long as it is not stolen or used in a previous crime). They can contact the manufacture and trace the gun to a gun store in Maryland who sold to my uncle. And that would be the end of the paper trail. Even if he "transferred" it to my dad, that record would not exist as there is no registration/gun database. As long as this gun is not stolen or used in a crime, he said it is not big of a deal.

Is he right? I do not know.

I want to get to the bottom of this. I am calling my local ATF office this week.

Congratulations, you have stumbled onto PA great "database/sales record" secret. They aren't supposed to keep the records, but they do. They aren't supposed to use it to prove ownership, but sometimes they do.
As I said in my first post, I carry a gun (and own several) that were legally brought in from out of state, by not transferring them to myself I risk running into some jackass with a badge and having my guns stolen from me. You would run the same risk, it's up to you to figure our what you want to do about it. My solution to the issue is to keep several thousand dollars in reserve for law suites and if an officer takes my gun, I write a blank check to someone to cost him his career or at least make his life a living hell. That's the only way it stops.
You don't need to call the ATF, you have your answers in this thread. You're going to end up loosing the guns if you say too much to the ATF, the way the guns got from your uncle to your father is enough if they want to pursue it.

[Gunsnwater]

Never carry a sentimental gun or a collector gun.

[R L Suehr]

Congratulations, you have stumbled onto PA great "database/sales record" secret. They aren't supposed to keep the records, but they do. They aren't supposed to use it to prove ownership, but sometimes they do.
As I said in my first post, I carry a gun (and own several) that were legally brought in from out of state, by not transferring them to myself I risk running into some jackass with a badge and having my guns stolen from me. You would run the same risk, it's up to you to figure our what you want to do about it. My solution to the issue is to keep several thousand dollars in reserve for law suites and if an officer takes my gun, I write a blank check to someone to cost him his career or at least make his life a living hell. That's the only way it stops.
You don't need to call the ATF, you have your answers in this thread. You're going to end up loosing the guns if you say too much to the ATF, the way the guns got from your uncle to your father is enough if they want to pursue it.

^^^ this^^^

I can't see how calling the ATF would be productive in anyway.

[Remington788]

^^^ this^^^

I can't see how calling the ATF would be productive in anyway.

Well, they might come out to your house in the middle of the night and explain their interpretation of the law to you.