Legal Implications if you Draw Your Pistol?

[danhr]

Quote Originally Posted by Captain Hollow Point View Post
he guy was walking towards him with a baseball bat. I think he said he pointed it at him out of the driver's side window and the guy ran away. I'd consider that a good example of justifiable drawing.



Here in the civilized world, killing unnecessarily is frowned upon.

There is a continuum of force, ranging from "run away in fear" to wreaking havoc with blades, war elephants, thermobaric bombs and chemical weapons.

"Defensive display of firearm" is a valid term that describes educating the goblin without actually pointing the gun at him.

It also coincides with preparing to escalate the violence as needed.

We are not limited to the binary decision "don't draw" or "draw and shoot".

Even though there are no PA laws against brandishing, I believe he is just trying to prove the point, similar to yours, that the easiest solution is often the most over looked one. Instead of neutralizing a threat from a situation, just remove yourself. Sure it inolve s checking ones pride at the door, but eh

[free]

Even though there are no PA laws against brandishing, I believe he is just trying to prove the point, similar to yours, that the easiest solution is often the most over looked one. Instead of neutralizing a threat from a situation, just remove yourself. Sure it inolve s checking ones pride at the door, but eh

Yes. More specifically, I was saying that if I am not under direct attack, and are safe within the confines of my vehicle, I would be disinclined to put myself in the position of being accused of escalation by "pointing a gun at him out of the driver's side window", ESPECIALLY if simply driving away is an option.

[Dennis42]

I think what Gun is stating is: don't let carrying a weapon give you "Beer Muscles". If you would not act aggressively without a weapon then do not act aggressively with a weapon. If you would never walk down a street in the "Bad section" of town while unarmed, then why would you walk down the same said street while being armed. When I am armed I am probably more passive then when I am not armed. Would I flip a guy off if he cut me off? Honestly...It's possible. BUT would I flip a guy off if I were armed? NEVER! I DO NOT WANT TO INVITE A FIGHT. (and yes I know I should NEVER flip anyone off, I am just being honest here folks) BE SAFE OUT THERE!

[alpacaheat]

http://www.ydr.com/story/news/crime/...-say/83539382/

Man argues with son, fires gun, cops say




An argument between father and son over a stove in North Hopewell Township escalated with gunfire on Saturday afternoon, according to charging documents.

Norman Gary Holloway Jr., 61, of the 600 block of South Pine Street, Red Lion, faces charges of aggravated assault, five counts of recklessly endangering another person, simple assault and disorderly conduct, documents state.

Norman Holloway was arrested and arraigned on the charges. He was taken to York County Prison and was released Sunday after posting $50,000 bail, according to York County Prison.

Police said that around 1 p.m. Saturday, they were sent to a home in the 4900 block of Deer Road for a domestic disturbance. Once there, they spoke with resident Jacob Holloway, who said his father, Norman Holloway, had arrived there earlier in the day to drop off a child.

At some point, father and son began arguing about Norman Holloway's gas burner stove, which Jacob Holloway had used. Norman Holloway then said to his son, "I got something for you" and displayed a handgun, documents state.

Jacob Holloway said he retreated to his home and heard a gunshot, then went outside to yell at his father. Norman Holloway then drove off in a silver SUV, documents state.

Three juveniles and Jacob Holloway's wife were inside the home when the gun was fired. The gunshot was fired either at Jacob Holloway or somewhere nearby, documents state.

Neither father nor son could be reached for comment Tuesday.


-----------------------------------------------------

http://www.ydr.com/story/news/crime/...y=&autologin=\

Man points gun at moving cars in York, cops say



A gun-wielding man told York City Police he tried to break into several vehicles on Saturday because "York sucks, and I wanted to get out," according to charging documents.

Police also asked the man, Richard Matthew Ramos, 22, why he had pointed the gun at occupied vehicles, both stopped at a red light and moving in the city, to which he replied, "because I wanted to," documents state.

Ramos, of the 500 block of West Market Street, York, faces charges of illegal possession of a firearm, firearms not to be carried without a license, receiving stolen property, recklessly endangering another person, disorderly conduct and criminal mischief.

He was arraigned on the charges and taken to York County Prison on $75,000 bail, according to the York County Sheriff's Office.

On Saturday about 6:46 p.m., police were sent to a call about a man with a weapon in the 300 block of North George Street. York County 911 gave police a description, and also updated police that the man had walked north across the bridge on North George Street, documents state.

Two officers spotted the man, later identified as Ramos, and told him to stop. Ramos turned to look at police, then continued walking, documents state.

Police struggled with Ramos, and eventually were able to handcuff him. They also seized a .40-caliber black Taurus handgun from his front waistband. The gun was loaded and had one bullet in its chamber, documents state.

Police then ran the gun through a crime database and discovered it had been reported stolen.

Witnesses told police they saw Ramos trying to break the windows of a vehicle with the handgun. When Ramos was unsuccessful, he moved onto another vehicle, but again could not gain entry into it, documents state.

Near Arch and North George streets, Ramos pointed the gun at occupied vehicles at the intersection's traffic light, documents state.

When police interviewed Ramos, they asked him how much he had had to drink. His answer? "Enough." About the gun being stolen, Ramos said, "It was just a misunderstanding," documents state.

[QuackXP]

No matter how well the law is written your still going to be up against how certain members of the justice system interpret it against the facts of your specific case. There are very few absolute black and white rules.

Castle doctrine in PA does tilt things In your favor I believe in the home. I would not worry about drawing or displaying a firearm in your home. For me if not all of the family (only my wife) currently are accounted for I keep the firearm at low ready. If I've verified the location of my wife (9/10 that should be very easy) then I am at high ready while searching the house. Anyone who broke in weather they are armed or unarmed is assumed to be there to murder, rape, kidnap, or maim you and deadly force can be used. That is the basics of it.

For me personally if someone is in my house and I can determine with a very good degree of certainty that they are unarmed, they get one warning, if the are obviously armed or I cannot determine weather they are armed or not no such warning will be given before I shoot to stop the threat.

Outside of the home things get a little more grey. While current castle doctrine does allow you to "stand your ground" its not as clear (to me at least) as it is in the home. However you must be in reasonable fear of death, rape, kidnap or maiming to use deadly force, and reasonable means what is reasonable to 12 of your "peers" not necessarily what you feel is reasonable.

For me outside of the home. If I can deescalate the situation or remove myself from it I will. Ill take to ego/pride hit and do it.

If I do draw it will be because I feel that only two things will stop the threat are the display of a firearm or the use of a firearm.

If your not prepared to fire do not draw. If you draw and that stops the threat do not fire.

I am not a lawyer and none of this is legal advice. My advice is based on previous discussions, reading journalism on the subject, reading the law myself (again not a lawyer so maybe I did not read it perfectly) and one firearms law seminar.

I believe I answered your first scenario about someone in your home.

2nd I would give them a warning, attempt to document the trespassing, then call the police. If at some point the trespasser became aggressive to the point where I felt my life was in danger only then would I draw in preparation to fire.

Sometimes its easy to read people and they just need to get their opinion out. Give them a chance then re assert that they are trespassing and if they do not leave you will call the cops. After that warning do not engage them any further simply act on your ultimatum.

As to your third scenario. Try to avoid the impulse to flip off someone who is already acting aggressive, this is harder than it sounds, and I am not without guilt here. However weather you flipped them off or not. Drive safely on the most open and populated roads, preferably to a police station if you know the area if not just stay on open roads and call 911. If the other driver forces your off the road and or boxes you in draw, lock the doors (if you do not have a habit of locking them as a matter of routine) and roll up the windows. If they approach your disabled or blocked in car I would display a firearm and fire if they breach the vehicle exterior.

[NoSlackDelta]

I disagree. It implies the guy is in his car. If you can drive off, then drive off. If you can't drive off, roll up the window and wait for guy to break window with bat. Then shoot the fucker. Just my view.

I'm not waiting for some psycho to smash my window with a baseball bat before I react. I may get hit in the process, may get glass in my eyes, both of which could render me defenseless. Waiting that long is a bad idea IMO.

[markshere2]

No matter how well the law is written your still going to be up against how certain members of the justice system interpret it against the facts of your specific case. There are very few absolute black and white rules.

Castle doctrine in PA does tilt things In your favor I believe in the home. I would not worry about drawing or displaying a firearm in your home. For me if not all of the family (only my wife) currently are accounted for I keep the firearm at low ready. If I've verified the location of my wife (9/10 that should be very easy) then I am at high ready while searching the house. Anyone who broke in weather they are armed or unarmed is assumed to be there to murder, rape, kidnap, or maim you and can deadly force can be used. That is the basics of it.

For me personally if someone is in my house and I can determine with a very good degree of certainty that they are unarmed, they get one warning, if the are obviously armed or I cannot determine weather they are armed or not not such warning will be given before I shoot to stop the threat.

Outside of the home things get a little more grey. While current castle doctrine does allow you to "stand your ground" its not as clear (to me at least) as it is in the home. However you must be in reasonable fear of death, rape, kidnap or maiming to use deadly force, and reasonable means what is reasonable to 12 of your "peers" not necessarily what you feel is reasonable.

For me outside of the home. If I can deescalate the situation or remove myself from it I will. Ill take to ego/pride hit and do it.

If I do draw it will be because I feel that only two things will stop the threat are the display of a firearm or the use of a firearm.

If your not prepared to fire do not draw. If you draw and that stops the threat do not fire.

I am not a lawyer and none of this is legal advice. My advice is based on previous discussions, reading journalism on the subject, reading the law myself (again not a lawyer so maybe I did not read it perfectly) and one firearms law seminar.

I believe I answered your first scenario about someone in your home.

2nd I would give them a warning, attempt to document the trespassing, then call the police. If at some point the trespasser became aggressive to the point where I felt my life was in danger only then would I draw in preparation to fire.

Sometimes its easy to read people and they just need to get their opinion out. Give them a chance then re assert that they are trespassing and if they do not leave you will call the cops. After that warning do not engage them any further simply act on your ultimatum.

As to your third scenario. Try to avoid the impulse to flip off someone who is already acting aggressive, this is harder than it sounds, and I am not without guilt here. However weather you flipped them off or not. Drive safely on the most open and populated roads, preferably to a police station if you know the area if not just stay on open roads and call 911. If the other driver forces your off the road and or boxes you in draw, lock the doors (if you do not have a habit of locking them as a matter of routine) and roll up the windows. If they approach your disabled or blocked in car I would display a firearm and fire if they breach the vehicle exterior.

Excellent essay on the continuum of force and how its different in the home vs in the yard vs out and about.

[Dubltap25]

the deciding factors for the aftermath of each shooting event will be decided by what you say, how you say it and to whom it is said. Have a distinct plan for how to conduct yourself after an event. In a non shoot scenario legal representation may not be necessary, but if you have to pull that trigger there is no reason anyone needs a statement while you are uder stress. Calm down, contact a lawyer and do things the right way for you. Unless the suspect is still a threat and descriptions and such are needed for safety reasons then time is your friend. Unfortunately stress effects us all differently and the English language can be interpreted in many ways. They say every armed encounter involves three fights. The moral/ internal fight to even leave the house prepared to protect yourself with deadly force. Second the armed / violent confrontation itself. But don't forget the third. The trauma of the encounter and the investigation. Prepare for this third fight as you would and have for the first two. This one may be just as or more important than pulling that trigger. Your life still hangs in the balance.

[QuackXP]

Excellent essay on the continuum of force and how its different in the home vs in the yard vs out and about.

Thanks.

Id like to state again, I am not a lawyer, or any other expert related to these laws, these are my opinions after consuming what I believe is all the free available information and one course on general firearms laws.

I'm hoping to get a better understanding specifically on the laws relating use of force in an upcoming course offered by F.I.R.E institute and PeteG of PAFOA.

http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=304017

[Nova Niner]

No matter how well the law is written your still going to be up against how certain members of the justice system interpret it against the facts of your specific case. There are very few absolute black and white rules.

Castle doctrine in PA does tilt things In your favor I believe in the home. I would not worry about drawing or displaying a firearm in your home. For me if not all of the family (only my wife) currently are accounted for I keep the firearm at low ready. If I've verified the location of my wife (9/10 that should be very easy) then I am at high ready while searching the house. Anyone who broke in weather they are armed or unarmed is assumed to be there to murder, rape, kidnap, or maim you and can deadly force can be used. That is the basics of it.

For me personally if someone is in my house and I can determine with a very good degree of certainty that they are unarmed, they get one warning, if the are obviously armed or I cannot determine weather they are armed or not not such warning will be given before I shoot to stop the threat.

Outside of the home things get a little more grey. While current castle doctrine does allow you to "stand your ground" its not as clear (to me at least) as it is in the home. However you must be in reasonable fear of death, rape, kidnap or maiming to use deadly force, and reasonable means what is reasonable to 12 of your "peers" not necessarily what you feel is reasonable.

For me outside of the home. If I can deescalate the situation or remove myself from it I will. Ill take to ego/pride hit and do it.

If I do draw it will be because I feel that only two things will stop the threat are the display of a firearm or the use of a firearm.

If your not prepared to fire do not draw. If you draw and that stops the threat do not fire.

I am not a lawyer and none of this is legal advice. My advice is based on previous discussions, reading journalism on the subject, reading the law myself (again not a lawyer so maybe I did not read it perfectly) and one firearms law seminar.

I believe I answered your first scenario about someone in your home.

2nd I would give them a warning, attempt to document the trespassing, then call the police. If at some point the trespasser became aggressive to the point where I felt my life was in danger only then would I draw in preparation to fire.

Sometimes its easy to read people and they just need to get their opinion out. Give them a chance then re assert that they are trespassing and if they do not leave you will call the cops. After that warning do not engage them any further simply act on your ultimatum.

As to your third scenario. Try to avoid the impulse to flip off someone who is already acting aggressive, this is harder than it sounds, and I am not without guilt here. However weather you flipped them off or not. Drive safely on the most open and populated roads, preferably to a police station if you know the area if not just stay on open roads and call 911. If the other driver forces your off the road and or boxes you in draw, lock the doors (if you do not have a habit of locking them as a matter of routine) and roll up the windows. If they approach your disabled or blocked in car I would display a firearm and fire if they breach the vehicle exterior.

Seems like great advice, thanks!!