NATO

[adymond]

Okay I have a pretty dumb question here. I have heard we sponsored Georgia to be welcomed into NATO, but that Russia blocked the membership. Now how the HELL does Russia have a say in that? It would be like us blocking someone joining the WARSAW Pact. How did Russia block that? If Georgia were in NATO this would be a totally different situation. Do you think Russia blocked the membership because this was already in the works?

[••SpraynPray••]

yeah!?!? wtf? Good question!

[arrrrgh15]

Do you think Russia blocked the membership because this was already in the works?

Yes. They never fully intended to let Georgia go. It only needed a spark to set it off and put things in motion.

[LittleRedToyota]

basically russia says...

"OK, NATO, if you grant membership to georgia, we are going to..."

"...decrease the amount of oil and natural gas we supply to europe"

or "...send troops into kosovo"

or "...sell a bunch of advanced military technology to iran"

or "...{insert other russian geopolitical move here}"

or even "...invade georgia, thus forcing you to either go to war with us--which both we and you know you do not want to and will not do--or show the world that membership in NATO is worthless".

russia cannot actually block georgia's acceptance into NATO, but they can make NATO (including the US) decide that doing so is not in their (our) best interest overall.

the entire globe is the chess board...various countries/political relationships/etc. are the chess pieces. geopolitics is a complicated game in which everything is related--even if it doesn't appear so on the surface.

[adymond]

russia cannot actually block georgia's acceptance into NATO, but they can make NATO (including the US) decide that doing so is not in their (our) best interest overall.

the entire globe is the chess board...various countries/political relationships/etc. are the chess pieces. geopolitics is a complicated game in which everything is related--even if it doesn't appear so on the surface.

That's sort of what I was thinking, but I am trying to figure out why NATO didn't say "Hey Russia, suck ass. We are welcoming them. Do what you will and deal with the repercussions." Oil/natural gas output would hurt a bit, but at this time would not cripple anyone. Send troops to Kosovo or Georgia and deal with having a boot up your collective asses. Try to sell weapons to nations under embargo (even though China and Russia have been dealing nuclear tech to Iraq and Iran for YEARS) and see previous statement.

I figured it would take a while to get the infrastructure in place to allow 1200 tanks and all the support vehicles in place and not just a few days which proved to me Russia was waiting for this. They used the "Russian citizens" in South Ossatia as that spark. I guess out Border Agents and LEO had better be careful when dealing with the Mexican and various Central and South American citizens they deal with. Mexico may declare war.

[Dredly]

That's sort of what I was thinking, but I am trying to figure out why NATO didn't say "Hey Russia, suck ass. We are welcoming them. Do what you will and deal with the repercussions." Oil/natural gas output would hurt a bit, but at this time would not cripple anyone. Send troops to Kosovo or Georgia and deal with having a boot up your collective asses. Try to sell weapons to nations under embargo (even though China and Russia have been dealing nuclear tech to Iraq and Iran for YEARS) and see previous statement.

I figured it would take a while to get the infrastructure in place to allow 1200 tanks and all the support vehicles in place and not just a few days which proved to me Russia was waiting for this. They used the "Russian citizens" in South Ossatia as that spark. I guess out Border Agents and LEO had better be careful when dealing with the Mexican and various Central and South American citizens they deal with. Mexico may declare war.

haha yeah except Europe as a whole has no backbone and a war with Russia would see Europe in ruins, Europe gets a LOT of their oil from Russia and former USSR countries and it wouldn't be hard to shut that off.

We mobilized 1/2 way around the world in less then a week... why do you think it would be hard for Russia to move a bunch of tanks a few hundred miles to the border of another country? We could have an aircraft carrier within sticking distance of any location on the globe in less then a week.

[adymond]

haha yeah except Europe as a whole has no backbone and a war with Russia would see Europe in ruins, Europe gets a LOT of their oil from Russia and former USSR countries and it wouldn't be hard to shut that off.

We mobilized 1/2 way around the world in less then a week... why do you think it would be hard for Russia to move a bunch of tanks a few hundred miles to the border of another country? We could have an aircraft carrier within sticking distance of any location on the globe in less then a week.

I hate to tell you, but a 70 ton vehicle is a logistic nightmare to move. I think a cargo plane can move 1 at a time. How many cargo planes do you think Russia has. We did not mobilize in a week. It took months to get our supplies and infrastructure in place. Read Tommy Franks' book. He talks about how it took several months to get the gear in place. The people and planes were much easier. Also it's not like they could just drop their tanks in Georga. There is a rather rugged mountain range in between.

[normanvin]

I hate to tell you, but a 70 ton vehicle is a logistic nightmare to move. I think a cargo plane can move 1 at a time. How many cargo planes do you think Russia has. We did not mobilize in a week. It took months to get our supplies and infrastructure in place. Read Tommy Franks' book. He talks about how it took several months to get the gear in place. The people and planes were much easier. Also it's not like they could just drop their tanks in Georga. There is a rather rugged mountain range in between.

They don't need need to fly. Can't they just drive.

[LittleRedToyota]

TOil/natural gas output would hurt a bit, but at this time would not cripple anyone.

actually, i think they could pretty much cripple europe...at least for awhile. of course, they would be hurting themselves too since they need that revenue.

Send troops to Kosovo or Georgia and deal with having a boot up your collective asses.

we are in no positition to actually send troops to georgia or kosovo, so russia wouldn't actually get a boot up their butt...and they know it. they called our bluff.

Try to sell weapons to nations under embargo (even though China and Russia have been dealing nuclear tech to Iraq and Iran for YEARS) and see previous statement.

again, no boot up russia's butt. we just plain aren't in a position to do it. and, even if we were, russia still has lots o' nukes...we are not actually going to start a war with them. and they know it.

as militarily superior as we are, we cannot unilaterally impose our will on the rest of the world. it has nothing to do with right or wrong or any of that...it is just a plain and simple fact. we simply do not have the ability to unilaterally impose our will on the rest of the world. deluding ourselves into thinking we are in such a positition is a recipe for disaster. we have to face up to reality and win the game we are actually playing...not the one we would like to be playing.

so, we will continue the geopolitical chess match...and we will continue to make progress here and there and to lose ground here and there. we don't really have much choice (unless we really want to have all out nuclear warfare). that's just the way it works.

[Dredly]

They don't need need to fly. Can't they just drive.

hehe yeah I think he missed that one :P

Don't we send most of our heavy stuff over via water not plane?

Also I'm pretty sure most of our (and Russia's) APC's and IFV's can be transported by plane now fairly effectively