Imaginary firearms database

[bigbear]

Okay, this may be the wrong section for this, but I'm going to put it here.

I have read numerous posts where people have spoken of officers running their firearms through an illegal, imaginary database. I'm only speaking from my experience here, but I know that if I am running a firearm through any database, because I've legally seized it as a result of a crime being committed, I've only ever run said firearm through NCIC to see if it's stolen. And if the information that I give to my dispatch isn't listed on this database as stolen, all I get back is "no record found." I'm not told who owns the gun I'm holding, or anything like that.

What database are people talking about?

[TonyF]

The PA State Police handgun registry.

[knight0334]

What TonyF said.

There is a difference between the NCIC database and the PSP's "database". Not all LEO departments in PA dabble into the PSP's "database", but many do.

[mjfletcher]

That would be the PA State police sales registry.

[JCWohlschlag]

They are referring to the Pennsylvania State Police purchase database, which lists all handguns sold by federally licensed firearms dealers in Pennsylvania. You can find proof of the use of this database by reading about the Old Country Buffet incident in Dickson City, where one member’s gun (sorry, I don’t remember which one of you it was) was run through said database and the officer refused to return the gun to him because his wife was listed as the owner. The anal-retentive officer would only return the gun to his wife, who was standing next to him.

So, the conflict lies in the following contradictions:

• Any firearms registry in Pennsylvania is illegal as per 18 Pa.C.S. § 6111.4. (“Notwithstanding any section of this chapter to the contrary, nothing in this chapter shall be construed to allow any government or law enforcement agency or any agent thereof to create, maintain or operate any registry of firearm ownership within this Commonwealth. For the purposes of this section only, the term "firearm" shall include any weapon that is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any such weapon.”)
• The courts have ruled that the Pennsylvania State Police purchase database is not a registry and is legal because it does not contain all of the information a registry would.
• Despite the database not legally being a registry, law enforcement is still using it as such, and are confiscating firearms that do not show you as the owner or do not show any record whatsoever, sometimes without giving a receipt for the confiscation as legally required.
• Further, municipal law enforcement seems to have unfettered access to use this database even though it has been reported that it is against Pennsylvania State Police rules for any municipal law enforcement officer to use it. (I am retracting this statement due to questionable credibility of source. Do not consider this information true until further corroboration can be presented. Please see below.)

[Steve in PA]

[*]Further, municipal law enforcement seems to have unfettered access to use this database even though it has been reported that it is against Pennsylvania State Police rules for any municipal law enforcement officer to use it.

Oh really? I'd like to know where you got this from.

The only way this "data base" can be accessed is by having the county dispatcher run the serial number.

[Intolerantbobj]

I'd have figured that this quote from J C W 's comment said it all ...

... > " You can find proof of the use of this database by reading about the Old Country Buffet incident in Dickson City, where one member’s gun (sorry, I don’t remember which one of you it was) was run through said database and the officer refused to return the gun to him because his wife was listed as the owner. The anal-retentive officer would only return the gun to his wife, who was standing next to him ". <

In addition to that, ' if ' the P S P are not maintaining a Database
, exactly where would the " County Dispatch " be running the serial number ? ... oops

[Pa. Patriot]

Ok, we have a lot of good answers... I will further clarify some minor points with a re-cap...

As mentioned, the database is a database of some Pa. handgun sales that is maintained by the PSP.

The database is only a partial database. The database contains all handguns sales on which a SP4-127 was executed per 18PACS6111.
These "application/Record of Sale" forms are filled out in triplicate upon sale/transfer of a handgun at an FFL or sheriff's office.
One copy goes to the Co. Sheriff who then compiles the owner/serial# info and fwds to the PSP for their "database".

The PSP contends that the database is a tool for crime investigation.
The records are used "as a starting point for investigators when a handgun used in a crime is recovered by police," said state police spokesman Jack Lewis. However... the PSP has not provided any examples of the database helping solve a crime when asked.

Since it is only a partial database, Pa. Superior Court ruled the database was not a registry (AGCSL lawsuit)

Since it is only a partial database, it is 100% worthless as an ownership registry to the street cop.

Unfortunately, many PD's are using the database as a registry. myself and 3 other members here that I am aware of have been victimized by this unauthorized, improper and illegal use of this "database".

[pex]

I'm only speaking from my experience here, but I know that if I am running a firearm through any database, because I've legally seized it as a result of a crime being committed, I've only ever run said firearm through NCIC to see if it's stolen.

I'm not sure how an NCIC check is any less illicit in most of the circumstances it is used, given that the crime for which most officers temporarily detain a firearm is NOT a stolen firearm. Firearms aren't a special class of items precluded from the protections of 4A or Pa Const Art I Sec 8 (I will have to check where Terry integrates into PA law because it certainly would seem to run afoul of OUR constitution.)

Just because an officer can temporarily detain a firearm for officer safety doesn't mean that we can just say "well if a piece of one protection is gone, let's throw out the constitutions and statutory protections afforded to a person".

You may or may not shoot back with some number of cases including one about a stereo and running its serial number and how a person has no property investment in a serial number, which for firearms would have to be untrue since it is illegal in PA and probably federal law to remove the serial number. Add in that it is tied to your person through an illegal database. The serial number is certainly an investment.

Next you'll tell me how the stereo case gives us some sort of plain view doctrine that we can pile ONTO Terry, which I think is certainly bullshit, but apparently someone felt it was okay to throw that in. So if I put a sticker over my serial number, what do you do then? You've confiscated a firearm but there's no serial in plain view, and no reason to suspect the serial has been altered.

I think the RAS -> terry frisk -> temporary detainer -> complete police impunity is an abusive cheatcode that is hard to rationalize. It's a backdoor to the protections of the supreme laws of the land, and one the public should absolutely not accept.

I will see if I can find the other posts where we talk about the indiscriminate actions taken on firearms after a terry frisk and terry seizure. Many reports seem to say that police believe a terry seizure to be a probable cause or warrant seizure when it surely is not.

If you can't do whatever you want after a terry seizure, you can't run the NCIC check, so it's important we get that part down first.

[RocketFoot]

Does the PSP also maintain database of reported stolen guns or is it included in the main registry?