Firearms training for ltcf

[TonyF]

But again, i am not aware of any poor handling issues with ltcf holders.

Sure, so long as they don't remove the pistol from its holster.

You've mentioned leaving ranges because of unsafe gun handling you witnessed. I'd be very much surprised if most of those folks did not have LTCF's.

[Guns4Fun]

Sure, so long as they don't remove the pistol from its holster.

You've mentioned leaving ranges because of unsafe gun handling you witnessed. I'd be very much surprised if most of those folks did not have LTCF's.

Very true---but fortunatly, no one was actually shot . Just very unsafe.

Tony, since your in here---don't you offer other state ltcf classes? What are their requirements?

[fingers80002]

Yes.

It already is restricted. Carry into a courthouse if you don't agree.

We've seen lots of times that even legal carrying comes with hassles, arrests, confiscations, etc.... If we don't play by their rules they take away your permission to carry.

I am in favor of some requirements to own and carry a firearm. I can't say that I'm in favor of everyone being allowed to own a gun. I do not want my own brother to own a gun. He's excluded from ownership and I think it's a good thing.

I think we may have some common ground here.
I do agree with SOME of the rules for prohibiting ownership.
I also agree with SOME training.
How the training requirement is enacted is my problem(lack of wording).
If someone has a DD-214, do they have to take a basic firearms class?
How about a Hunters safety course?

These are the same requierments as FL has.

Just because someone hasn't gone through " F.I.R.E. Institute", " Frontline Insitute", or a "Basic NRA Course", doesn't mean they are not qualified to own or carry.

Some people were taught about proper gun safety and operation, by their parents.

Some were taught in the Military.

Where is the line drawn?

[TonyF]

Very true---but fortunatly, no one was actually shot . Just very unsafe.

Tony, since your in here---don't you offer other state ltcf classes? What are their requirements?

I teach the Utah CFP class and there is no live fire exercise or qualification mandated.

IIRC, only Texas has anything close to an effective CFP class. the problem is that it takes more than one day to adequately get someone up to speed. Three days is the minimum IMHO.

[knight0334]

One's right to protect themselves should not balance on whether they can afford training before they can get a LTCF. Also add to the fact that most of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is boondock BFE - training schools are not available. Hell, in some parts of this state even a gas station, Walmart, grocery store, or beer distributor/state store is 20-50 miles away.

If its more coverage with reciprocal agreements that you want - change the other states' laws that tack on an asinine requirement before you can carry to protect yourself. And in addition, since OC'n requires no license, foregoing any "need" for training - it would be rather moot that you'd require training for concealed carry since the purpose of carrying is the same and the use of the firearm under life/death situations would be the same as open carry. Its bad enough that we have to have a license to conceal or carry in a vehicle - no need to require anti-gun philosophy to our right that is already infringed upon.

Requiring training is just another sly socialistic ploy to limit the number of people carrying by anti-gun folks. ...to make it a more difficult and more expensive process.

PA's track record on lawful use of firearms by those carrying is pretty outstanding as is. Very few OC or CC people are charged for crimes or misuse while carrying. Why make something more complex than it needs to be, or fix something that isn't broke?

[TonyF]

Where is the line drawn?

That is the question.

How the training requirement is enacted is my problem(lack of wording).

This is also a huge part of the problem. More to the point, who establishes the criteria and who administers the program?

If someone has a DD-214, do they have to take a basic firearms class?

This has allot to do with the individual rather than the document. Ask 27Hand (a member of this board) if his prepared him for the eventuality of a lethal force encounter. I can cite many examples of students in our classes who actually had combat experience tell us they wish they'd had our training before they earned their CIB.

The fact is, only a very few military personnel fire their weapons very much if at all after basic training and AIT. The percentage is very small. Most soldiers, sailors and airmen are in fact performing support and logistics.

Most instructors in the private sector will refuse to allow anyone to enroll in intermediate or advanced classes based solely on military service, even those with combat experience.

How about a Hunters safety course?

My experience tells me it is woefully inadequate. That was quite a while ago so maybe it's changed for th better.

Just because someone hasn't gone through " F.I.R.E. Institute", " Frontline Insitute", or a "Basic NRA Course", doesn't mean they are not qualified to own or carry.

True, but I guarantee that you will be much better prepared than you would be otherwise. Ask 27Hand about his military experience vs the classes he attended with us.

Some were taught in the Military.

This may or may not mean anything. I recall an Army Ranger tell a private sector instructor his Ranger training came nowhere close to what he learned in three days in his carbine class.

There was a platoon of SEALS in a sub gun class at gunsite while I was there taking a pistol class in 2001 and the operations manager at the time was talking to us in our classroom and made the comment that he needed to get back to their range before one of them shot another.

Sadly, small arms proficiency is not really a top priority in the U.S. Armed Forces. By proficiency I mean more than just basic marksmanship. It is however, slowly changing for the better.

[Michele]

When you take on the responsibility of owning, handling and carrying a firearm, you owe it to yourself and your family to seek some kind of training. Even if you never go to the range to practice, never intend to own more than one firearm, you should be able to handle the firearm carefully and safely should you ever have to use it.

Would you give your 16 year old the keys to your truck because he's of age to drive? Probably not? Because he doesn't know how to drive. He's never had training. Remember, a car becomes a deadly weapon as soon as you put the key in the ignition.

I took TonyF's one day handgun class. I'm glad I did. I also insisted my son (19 1/2) take the class with me. Why? I firmly believe if there is a gun in the home, all adults should know how to use them carefully and responsibly.

Should training be required to obtain a LTCF....absolutely not.
Should you take personal responsibility and seek some training......absolutely yes.

[knight0334]

When you take on the responsibility of owning, handling and carrying a firearm, you owe it to yourself and your family to seek some kind of training. Even if you never go to the range to practice, never intend to own more than one firearm, you should be able to handle the firearm carefully and safely should you ever have to use it.

Would you give your 16 year old the keys to your truck because he's of age to drive? Probably not? Because he doesn't know how to drive. He's never had training. Remember, a car becomes a deadly weapon as soon as you put the key in the ignition.

I took TonyF's one day handgun class. I'm glad I did. I also insisted my son (19 1/2) take the class with me. Why? I firmly believe if there is a gun in the home, all adults should know how to use them carefully and responsibly.

Should training be required to obtain a LTCF....absolutely not.
Should you take personal responsibility and seek some training......absolutely yes.

That in bold is how it should be. Should it be a requirement, no. Should you do it to better yourself, yes.

[fingers80002]

When you take on the responsibility of owning, handling and carrying a firearm, you owe it to yourself and your family to seek some kind of training. Even if you never go to the range to practice, never intend to own more than one firearm, you should be able to handle the firearm carefully and safely should you ever have to use it.

Would you give your 16 year old the keys to your truck because he's of age to drive? Probably not? Because he doesn't know how to drive. He's never had training. Remember, a car becomes a deadly weapon as soon as you put the key in the ignition.

I took TonyF's one day handgun class. I'm glad I did. I also insisted my son (19 1/2) take the class with me. Why? I firmly believe if there is a gun in the home, all adults should know how to use them carefully and responsibly.

Should training be required to obtain a LTCF....absolutely not.
Should you take personal responsibility and seek some training......absolutely yes.

That is what I was trying to say.

However , if THEY require training, What then?

[fingers80002]

That is the question.



This is also a huge part of the problem. More to the point, who establishes the criteria and who administers the program?



This has allot to do with the individual rather than the document. Ask 27Hand (a member of this board) if his prepared him for the eventuality of a lethal force encounter. I can cite many examples of students in our classes who actually had combat experience tell us they wish they'd had our training before they earned their CIB.

The fact is, only a very few military personnel fire their weapons very much if at all after basic training and AIT. The percentage is very small. Most soldiers, sailors and airmen are in fact performing support and logistics.

Most instructors in the private sector will refuse to allow anyone to enroll in intermediate or advanced classes based solely on military service, even those with combat experience.



My experience tells me it is woefully inadequate. That was quite a while ago so maybe it's changed for th better.



True, but I guarantee that you will be much better prepared than you would be otherwise. Ask 27Hand about his military experience vs the classes he attended with us.



This may or may not mean anything. I recall an Army Ranger tell a private sector instructor his Ranger training came nowhere close to what he learned in three days in his carbine class.

There was a platoon of SEALS in a sub gun class at gunsite while I was there taking a pistol class in 2001 and the operations manager at the time was talking to us in our classroom and made the comment that he needed to get back to their range before one of them shot another.

Sadly, small arms proficiency is not really a top priority in the U.S. Armed Forces. By proficiency I mean more than just basic marksmanship. It is however, slowly changing for the better.

What I am asking , Does that prevent carrying?