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Thread: Firearms training for ltcf
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August 13th, 2008, 12:30 PM #111Banned
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Re: Firearms training for ltcf
training requirements can become a "jim Crow" situation. training can be made difficult to access, expensive, time consuming, intimidating, demeaning, etc, and all of these selectively at the whim of the administrator. by discretion, an administrator can disenfranchise an entire class of people, or worse yet, all but a select class.
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August 13th, 2008, 12:35 PM #112
Re: Firearms training for ltcf
It doesn't need to prove anything (I even said it doesn't prove anything in the section of text you pulled that from), it shows a lack of data period. I don't need to prove the negative, but I can illustrate that even the best information we have shows that nothing is occurring. And the data does show that as again, if it were occurring, it would be counted in with that data. And if it actually is occurring, then as I suspected, the number is so small as to be irrelevant and not indicative of a major problem that justifies a solution that forces one to give up essential liberties. Either way, it illustrates a lack of proof for the argument that this is a problem. It doesn't prove it, and it doesn't need to, you can't require me to prove a negative and then declare your concerns are valid while the data that shows a lack of evidence for it is not.
That's a pretty long list for being a small fraction of your post but irregardless, I still maintain the data doesn't mean much.
I offered up one anecdote (the 100+ co-workers). The rest of my argument is based on what I experience in training classes year after year after year. IMNSHO, my reality brings a heck of allot more to this debate than any theory but you're sounding off like the anecdote is the heart and soul of my argument and it isn't.
I really fail to see how anything I wrote was harsh or over the top or that could be characterized as an attack.
And I think you're over-complicating a very simple issue. When we talk about firearms safety we're talking about absolutes, not concepts. I don't need to attend a class in philosophy to understand how firearms safety relates to LTCF holders carrying in public.
I don't put you guys on a pedestal like some people do, if you're going to make a claim of absolutes, I expect you to prove it. Repeating it does not constitute proof. A consensus, even if one existed, does not constitute proof.
It's no different than the claims that openly carrying a firearm isn't safe. If you're going to make that claim, you have to show what actually occurs and at what frequency, otherwise, you're just using some sort of hyperbole to make your point, and that doesn't cut it. I could just as easily say that walking down the sidewalk isn't safe because someone's car could jump the sidewalk and kill you. That's something that has actually happened that we can prove has happened, it's empirical, but that doesn't prove anything in and of itself in terms of risk or safe versus unsafe. To qualify risk (and thus what is safe versus unsafe and to what degree), we need a ratio or some form of odds for and against. The odds that someone will kill you by jumping their car on a sidewalk are extremely low, we know this because the analysis has been done on it. So we all feel pretty safe walking down the sidewalk because while it could happen, it isn't likely to happen. You can't get there on anecdotes and postulation alone.
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August 13th, 2008, 12:43 PM #113
Re: Firearms training for ltcf
I guess I got stuck on what you said earlier in post #75:
I want everyone to know that I am very uneasy about the state mandating training for two reasons.
1. They'd probably dick it up (the training curriculum).
2. I'm also concerned about turning a Right into a privilege.
But I have a specific perspective on the overall issue because of my involvement in the training industry.
My opinion is based on the realities I observe first hand and no amount of numbers and statistics, qualifiers and quantifiers, theories and possibilities are ever going to change those realities.
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August 13th, 2008, 12:46 PM #114
Re: Firearms training for ltcf
And at least people like Tony and the rest of the FIRE Institute staff actually do something about it by offering training in a state that doesn't mandate it. That's not an easy or terribly lucrative thing to spend so much time on in most cases.
Again, sorry for getting people a little heated over the topic.
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