Frustrating discussion

**crashdummybip** · January 28th, 2016, 11:17 PM

I tried to post an update to the Nextdoor webpage about how Montco no longer requires the police check cards, but it turned into an big, long discussion on open carrying in Philly. I just got very frustrated by it. What's your thoughts and did I say anything wrong? The main issue that I have is that there are so many that "work for the city" and think it is illegal to open carry in Philly even with a LTCF. This is a long read.

Applying for or renewing LTCF update
David Bivighouse
For those that are interested, the Montgomery County Sheriff's Department has changed their policy and no longer requires a local police check when obtaining a licence to carry firearms. For more information or questions please refer to their website.*http://www.montcopa.org/index.aspx?nid=401
Montgomery County, PA - Official Website - Gun Permits
Gun Permits
MONTCOPA.ORG

Steve Chrismar
You gotta wonder just how good of an idea that is? Sounds like a recipe for trouble.....although I certainly don't think the local Barney Fife's have a clear idea of what is needed in that regard.

David Bivighouse
It's really not a big deal at all. Everyone that is applying will still need to go through a background check, regardless of what county you live in.

All this does is take out one redundant step*of obtaining a LTCF, which allows for concealed carrying of a firearm. PA is an open carry state, which means that anyone can openly carry a firearm with no license. It can still take up to 45 days for the sheriff to approve the application.

Steve Chrismar
thanks for the explanation, Dave......

David Bivighouse*
My pleasure Steve. I hope that kind of answered what you were looking for.

Diana Zagiel*
You can not open carry in every county of PA. Phila and Pitts are not open carry..

Kyle Geier*
Open carry is not permitted in “cities of the first class,” which in Pennsylvania is only defined as Philadelphia. This means that if you are within the Philadelphia city limit, you may only carry if you possess a concealed weapons permit and your weapon is concealed – open carry is not permitted.

Diana Zagiel*
Correct, but I thought Pitts was a 1st class city too?

Kyle Geier*
It is, I was just making sure there was no confusion for people thinking of open/conceal. You are able to conceal there, just not open carry. Any City in PA that are first class are not able to open carry as you said.

Diana Zagiel*
Right, thats the point I was trying to make..LOL.. I guess I should have explained it better..LOL.. Thanks

Kyle Geier*
I just copied from their website that is all - hah it was the same thing you said just in fully explanation

David Bivighouse*
In Philadelphia, you may open carry, but only if you have a LTCF. You will probably get a lot of looks, but it is allowed.

David Bivighouse*
A big thing to note is that if people decide to open carry in PA, don't get in your vehicle. At that point, it becomes concealed carry, even if is displayed openly.

David Bivighouse*
I'm really not trying to disagree with what is being posted, but Pittsburgh is a city of the second class. (Population between 250,000 and 1 million). Philly is the only city of the first class in PA.

Diana Zagiel*
If u open carry in Philly U will be arrested.. U can not open carry in Philly, I know that for a fact because I worked for the City & Sheriffs office for 15 yrs and my husband worked for the Police dept.

Kyle Geier*
That would make sense why Pittsburgh was not included on the part i found. Thanks for that David!

David Bivighouse*
You're welcome Kyle. I will also be proving Diana wrong as well with being able to open carry in Philadelphia (as long as you have a license), even with her connection to the City and Sheriff's office*or her husband working for the police department.

For now, here's part of*opencarry.org*description of PA laws.*
Summary*
Pennsylvania is a traditional open carry state. There are 2 issues that prevent it from being a “Gold Star” open carry state. First, you must have a permit to open carry in the city of Philadelphia and second, you must have a permit to open carry in a vehicle. However, PA recognizes the permits of all 50 states for open/concealed carry in vehicles.
Reference:*http://www.opencarry.org/state-info-n-s/pennsylvania/

From a lawyers blog regarding his experience with open carrying in Philly:
http://blogs.lawyers.com/2012/02/pac...-philadelphia/

I will not be leaving it there. I will find the actual statute that states open carrying can be done in Philly with a LTCF.

Diana Zagiel*
By all means, prove me wrong. But do it the right way and go to Philly and open carry! Don't Google anything... Just because its on the internet it must be true?? I lived in the city for 40 yrs and worked in city Gov for 15 yrs and the court system for 10.. So YES, By all means prove me wrong by GOING to the City and open carry! If u are not willing to do that then this discussion is moot!

John Saggiomo*
I believe there was a case a few years back when i man was stop in center city phila and i believe after a long legal battle, the man won.

John Saggiomo*
He was open carrying.

David Bivighouse*
How is the point moot if we're discussing the legality of open carrying in Philly? It doesn't matter how long someone has worked in the system. The law is the law. Open carrying is legal in Philly as*long as you have a license.

The only reason I go to Philly is to work or to sporting events, both of which places are "gun free" zones, so I don't take my firearm with me just to leave it in my car.

As far as OC'ing in Philly, here's plenty of POSITIVE encounters while doing so...
http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=28748

This one even contains a directive sent to all districts regarding open carrying in Philly:
http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=178958
I'll quote the 3rd paragraph:
3. IN PHILADELPHIA, UNLIKE ANY OTHER PART OF THE STATE, FOR
ANY PERSON TO LAWFULLY, OPENLY AND VISIBLY CARRY A
FIREARM, THAT PERSON MUST HAVE A CONCEALED CARRY
FIREARMS LICENSE. SO, IN PHILADELPHIA, IF A PERSON HAS A
VALID CONCEALED CARRY FIREARMS LICENSE, HE OR SHE CAN
LEGALLY CARRY A FIREARM EITHER OPEN AND VISIBLE OR
CONCEALED.

There's plenty more to list, just do a search. Philly has come a long way in the past few years with respecting the law regarding the open or concealed carrying of firearms.

David Bivighouse*
Again, I'm not trying to be confrontational, but being a firearm owner and also having a LTCF, it is very important to know what I can and can't do in PA (and even in other states). Hence, why I research things.

Diana Zagiel*
David, I have been a gun owner since I turned 21, I have had my CCP since 21.. I was born and raised inside Philly, I know the laws in the city mainly because I worked for and in the system! My cousin is a Police Officer/ homicide det in Philly, U CAN NOT OPEN CARRY within the city limits. U will be arrested and have ur license revoked..Period.

David Bivighouse*
I suppose you paid no attention to anything that I wrote or posted. Now this discussion point is moot since nothing is getting through to you.

John Saggiomo*
Dave, i agree with you. As an owner and having LTCF, I keep up with the laws!

Philadelphia Police Wrongly Accuse Man of Gun Violation in Abuse Confrontation And Then Charge Him Instead With Disorderly Conduct.
May of 2011, Mark Fiorino

Diana Zagiel*
The only reason I interjected was to stop u from telling people they can open carry in the city. If u choose to believe u can, then by all means go right ahead.. But the rest of this community, if you*choose to listen to Dave then u will learn the hard way.. I am not arguing with u because apparently u know everything (which has been evident from all of your posts everyday) But when u start spreading false info at the risk of others being arrested and having their licenses revoked thats Y I interjected. otherwise, I am done with this conversation. Again, If u choose to believe everything u read on the internet u r a fool!!! Go OPEN CARRY in Philly, I encourage it!

David Bivighouse*
Thanks for your opinions Diana. I didn't realize that I was putting myself out there as the "All-knowing". I just try to share things to try to keep people informed.

I would continue to fight tooth*and nail about this, but I'm finding that no matter what I say or reference, that because you worked in and know "the system" makes it the law of the land.

As for if people decide to open carry in Philly, make sure you have a LTCF; not a CCP (we don't have concealed carry permits in PA).

David Bivighouse*
Ok, I hope this is a valid enough reference for you to finally say that people can LEGALLY open carry in Philadelphia with a valid LTCF.

Straight from the Philly Police website. Please go to and read page 3.

https://www.phillypolice.com/assets/...7-Firearms.pdf

Diana Zagiel*
You can Post all the "internet proof" u want.. GO DO IT!! Practice what you preach!!! Thats all I'm saying, BTW, My cousin, The Homicide det of 28 yrs said "tell him to come open carry in the city and I will see him in jail and he will lose his license to carry"! JS.. Because u want to keep posting internet propaganda without KNOWING the Philly LAW!!!

David Bivighouse*
What more do you want? If you can't reference Philly law from the Philly police website, then what can you do?

There is just no getting through to you and apparently your unlawful cousin.

Diana Zagiel*
OH, BTW.. I am done with this conversation, like I said, U R an "internet know it all".. Until you have walked the streets of Philly with your weapon hanging out, STOP PREACHING about u do not*know!!!! I also doubt u have ever "walked the streets of Philly", Not Media or Main Line but the streets of PHILLY!!! Go walk NE Philly along the BLVD or FKD Ave, open carry..hahaha.. I'll see u on the news..LOL Go walk Center City along 11th, 12th, Market, Chestnut, walnut sts.. LOL..

Diana Zagiel*
Have u ever lived in the city? Worked for the city? Worked for the Gov? The Sheriffs office? Any reason these people of Pennsburg should believe you? Other then what u can Google? What experience do u have with the City? Please elaborate for the Unknowing folks of Pennsburg?????

Diana Zagiel*
Just call any police district in the city.. The 15th 215-686-3150... The 2nd..215-686-3020... The 25th...215-686-3250... Oh, Maybe u dont know what the districts mean?? LOL

David Bivighouse*
Now you're bringing up a whole new topic. I was talking about the legality of open carrying in Philly, not the tactics of OC vs CC.

As far as why people should believe me about the legality of it,*look at the references. I'm not saying to go ahead and do it, I'm just saying it can be done.

There's a reason why I don't live in the city, it's a s***hole. If I didn't work here or go to sporting events there, I'd never go there.

On a side note, go to anger management much??

Elisha Burkhimer*
As a Philadelphia police detectives wife.... No you cannot open carry in Philadelphia!!!

Diana Zagiel*
Yes the Legality is :In addition, there are some real restrictions to open carry laws in Pennsylvania. Open carry is not permitted in “cities of the first class,” which in Pennsylvania is only defined*as Philadelphia. This means that if you are within the Philadelphia city limit, you may only carry if you possess a concealed weapons permit and your weapon is concealed – open carry is not permitted./// Yes, a concealed weapons permit!!! Yes, Thats what i have had for over 20 yrs.. Yes, I also have a LTFC... But I was a resident of Philly for 40 yrs.. U HAVE to have a CCP, CWP...*
Anger management??? LOL.. No, Ive been having a ball reading stupidity.. We all have been over here laughing at u..LMAO

**R L Suehr** · January 29th, 2016, 12:20 AM

You did just about all you could including citing the Philly police page. Some people are just too stubborn/stupid to be argued with. The only other thing you can do is throw it back at them. Ask them to cite the law that makes open carry illegal in the city. I doubt they'll do it, but if they try they will be very disappointed

. As far as the LTCF vs. Ccp thing. Tell them to pull out there license and tell you exactly where it says "concealed" on it.

Remember the old adage:
"It's best not to argue with stupid people. They will always drag you down to their level and they have more experience there."

**Jhaydeno** · January 29th, 2016, 08:33 AM

You tried, she's a know it all. She has her 'CCW since she was 21' don't ya know? Ask her where on her LTCF it says the word conceal!

Point people to the PA statutes, google PA 18CS and read through chapter 61, every bit of info you want about the actual laws are online. Or point them to the PAFOA flier online, it's clear and concise.

**priell3** · January 29th, 2016, 08:56 AM

Tell her that I have been a resident of Philly for 55 years, working for the City for 31 years and I have been open carrying in Philly for the past 5 years. I haven't been arrested and my LTCF revoked and I've had several encounters with the PPD in that time.

**philadelphia patriot** · January 29th, 2016, 09:05 AM

Well then according to Diana Zagiel, I must have broken the law a dozen or so times. You can't argue with stupid.

**philadelphia patriot** · January 29th, 2016, 09:10 AM

I wish she posted her cousin's name. I'd go call up the homicide unit right now and ask him if he gave her that advice. Seems like PPD needs more training.

**GunLawyer001** · January 29th, 2016, 09:11 AM

She probably has a cousin in the Mafia, so she KNOWS the Mafia is perfectly legal.

The fact that too many Philly cops are lawless thugs who will prone you for exercising your rights, is not proof that open carry with an LTCF within the city is illegal. It just means that Philly is corrupt, and that this woman is far too comfortable with "street justice", where bad cops tune you up for having the wrong attitude, and their superiors tolerate and support and enable this abuse.

The way to prove that conduct is unlawful, is to cite to the statute that makes it unlawful. You can't cite to a statute that doesn't exist. But this sort of Obama voter will not be swayed by "internet research" or troubling Google facts, because she is living proof of what I've said for years, that the worst people from whom to get your legal info regarding guns, are cops and gun store employees.

Bad cops can arrest you for "driving while black", or for "visibly being gay". I guess that proves, to this woman, that such behavior is illegal, and she would equally be cocky about blacks or gays driving through certain southern towns to "prove her wrong".

Being arrested for open carry with an LTCF is proof only that ignorant cops abuse their power. Her failure to understand that an LTCF is not a CWP, and her claim to have both, is conclusive proof that she is militantly ignorant of the facts, and smug about the unchecked power of her fellow govt bullies.