Using an Attorney or a Company to write a Trust?

[PAGunLawyer]

I thought it might be beneficial to explain a bit about why you might want to choose an Attorney to write your Trust instead of using a company or a word processor. Additionally, to explain why my fee is more than the companies and out-of-state attorneys.

I set my fee at $500 before discounts. This fee includes the time it takes me to write the documents and the anticipated time it takes to explain the documents themselves and for follow up phone calls with clients over the years. I have not had to charge a client for 'excessive' phone calls on their gun trusts and do not see that happening in the future. I am able to answer questions without qualifying with 'I am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice' because, well, I am a lawyer and can actually give legal advice.

In contrast, for those who bought a Trust via a third party, I charge by the hour. I get calls from non-clients who want to ask a question about using their Trust to add a co-Trustee, remove a beneficiary, etc. and have to charge because I have no idea what the wording is for their Trust. I have seen some really horribly written documents pushed out by companies with large 'CONSULT WITH AN ATTORNEY' or 'I AM NOT A LAWYER' disclaimers on them. Some are wholly wrong and missing beneficiary sections, firearms language, prohibited persons language, out-of-state language, funding, assets, etc. The reason that companies and out-of-state lawyers have disclaimers is to avoid being accused of practicing without a license and sometimes to mitigate any 'warranty' claims on the documents. An out-of-state attorney writing your Pennsylvania gun trust should have these same disclaimers. If an out-of-state attorney fails to make these disclaimers they may be committing malpractice. As attorneys, we are required to turn them in under our rules.

There is also no 'fee-sharing' between myself and any non-attorney business. It is against the rules of ethics for lawyers to engage in this sort of behavior. You, the client, are the only one I am beholden to and by not having those fee sharing agreements there is no question who my loyalties and duties lie with. As an aside, any discounts I offer are purely at a loss for me.

All this being said, I understand why people get trusts from companies and out-of-state attorneys. They are cheaper. Often you get them the same day over the internet. As a frugal man myself I can see the appeal. I am posting to make it a little more clear why I offer my Trusts at the price I do rather than attempt to match their pricing model. If all I did was put out a fill-in-the-blank Trust without any further attachments or warranties, I could probably lower my price, but that wouldn't be a way I would want to practice. Each Trust I write is individualized, I speak with every client and I answer my phone. Of course, I do not speak for all lawyers, in fact I only speak for myself, and can only offer why my prices are where they are. I hope this makes it a little more clear why you may see the discrepancy in pricing between attorneys and non-attorneys/out-of-state attorneys.

If you have any questions feel free to ask. However, do not leave confidential information on this forum (or anywhere else really). Call my office to discuss legal issues/questions.

[free]

Thank you for your post.

[markshere2]

OK Immana ask for some relief of ignorance here.

I understand a little about a trust for real estate purchasing.
The trust owns the land and is administered by the trustee.
If I develop a nasty habit of spending the credit card payment money on lottery tickets and red licorice....
and have to declare bankruptcy, creditors cannot come after the land.

So .... Iff'n I created a trust where i'm the trustee... the trust owns...
regular old rifles and handguns
NFA items like silencers?
SBRs and fully autos?

Whats the benefit of a trust vs Mark owning please?

[BIGPOPPA]

PAGunLawyer was who I went to for a family trust and I'm very impressed with the detail and substance of the document. Also, followup questions and changes were very prompt and detailed as well. Its a very good feeling having all the details covered and the ability to have any questions answered in a very professional prompt manner.

I really enjoy the fact when my sons come home on leave, they can use any of our NFA items and be well within the law.

[Emptymag]

What prompted this thread after roughly two years of no posts and why does it read like an advertisement?

[free]

What prompted this thread after roughly two years of no posts and why does it read like an advertisement?

Surprise, surprise, surprise. Never saw THAT coming. Only surprise is that it was post #5 instead of post #3.

[bogey1]

What prompted this thread after roughly two years of no posts and why does it read like an advertisement?

It probably is. Work has been really slow though.

[JAKIII]

I hit the thread because I thought Phil changed his screen name and wondered wtf.

[GunLawyer001]

I hit the thread because I thought Phil changed his screen name and wondered wtf.

No, not me. As I tell my many satisfied clients, who all paid less than market rates for prompt yet stellar service in complex matters that I handled with apparent ease, while they sit in extraordinarily comfy chairs in my modest yet tasteful office, with our puppy bounding in with an energetic yet disciplined gait to provide just one more element of happiness during what some competitors make an uncomfortable, expensive, and confusing experience, "the important thing in self-promotion is subtlety".

[PAGunLawyer]

OK Immana ask for some relief of ignorance here.

I understand a little about a trust for real estate purchasing.
The trust owns the land and is administered by the trustee.
If I develop a nasty habit of spending the credit card payment money on lottery tickets and red licorice....
and have to declare bankruptcy, creditors cannot come after the land.

So .... Iff'n I created a trust where i'm the trustee... the trust owns...
regular old rifles and handguns
NFA items like silencers?
SBRs and fully autos?

Whats the benefit of a trust vs Mark owning please?

NOTE: THIS IS A GROSS SIMPLIFICATION FOR ILLUSTRATIVE PURPOSES ONLY AND IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE. IT IS FOR FUN AND ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY.

To clarify the first paragraph, the creditors can and will come after the land depending on what type of trust you have, when you created it, who the beneficiaries are, the language of the Trust, the intent of the Trustor, etc. etc. There are many different kinds of Trusts and there are different ways to write a realty Trust. If you have an irrevocable trust and you only get the income from the land, they will be limited in recovery as you no longer have any ownership or control over the land, you are just getting a benefit from the land. They may be able to attach that benefit but not the whole of the land itself. There are a lot of conditions depending on circumstances which factor in whether they are able to get to the land. Just creating the Trust and trying to declare bankruptcy the next day won't work, for obvious reasons. This is because the Trustee is holding the benefit for the beneficiaries of the land who actually will get title at a later date. In contrast, if you have a realty trust in which you exercise full control over the land and are able to sell, lease or encumber the land, the creditors will be more likely to get you and so will the bankruptcy court. This is because you still have control and title over the land, you just put it in a Trust. Trusts are not magical, no matter what anyone tells you. They can, however, make your life and the lives of your beneficiaries much, much simpler if you die or become incapacitated.

Trusts can protect against certain things when done correctly and administered correctly. Let's say you have a collection of firearms in a well made Gun Trust. You are then accused of committing a crime unrelated to the firearms but which still prevents you from owning them or possessing them while you defend your case. All of the weapons, since they are not owned by you, are then transferred to a co-Trustee or a successor Trustee (depending on a number of factors and how the Trust is written) for safekeeping as you are now a prohibited person under the language of the Trust. This is why that paragraph is paramount, you were removed from the Trust as soon as you became a prohibited person, so you own none of the weapons that were to be seized. The Trusts co-Trustee(s) or successor Trustee(s) (see above) will now hold the weapons for the benefit of your beneficiaries. If the weapons were seized, they are now able to be released to an eligible person of the Trust to comply with the provisions of the Trust. This works for NFA and 'regular' firearms. This allows for the guns to go to the correct beneficiaries, which you selected before your troubles with the law, and not to whoever can take them at that time. Advance planning like this can solve the what-if scenarios before they happen.

Let's change your hypothetical and say that you are the spendthrift in the first paragraph. Can your creditors come after your guns? Absolutely. They are property in Pennsylvania subject to seizure to pay off a debt. A well made Gun Trust is most likely going to leave you in control so long as you are alive and competent. The creditors are going to see that you can 'revoke' the Trust and terminate the benefit to the beneficiaries. This assumes they discover and seek to attach the trust, but I digress. As the Trust is revocable and you retain control over the assets they might seek this remedy in a hypothetical bankruptcy. However, there are counter arguments to make depending on the circumstances regarding your Trust and your other assets. I am making a lot of assumptions to try to show one of the limits of a Trust and that Trusts and documents are not a panacea against all claims.

Now, what if a co-Trustee does the same thing? See, the co-Trustee has no ownership interest (again, depends on how the Trust is written). They have duties to and permissible use of the weapons, but they don't have any ownership interest in anything so they are unable to encumber the Trust (again, caveat here). The Trustor removes them and since all the weapons are gifts to the Trust (depending on language in the Trust), they are off the Trust without anything to give to the creditors.

What if a beneficiary runs up a debt? Well, if you, the Trustor, are still alive and competent, you can remove them as a beneficiary. Problem solved. They no longer have a beneficial interest to any property and they cannot be attached. Now let's say, just for fun, that you go into a coma with no chance of recovery at the moment that the debt gets called. Now the creditor is able to attempt to attach the benefit and claim the guns once you die or are declared permanently incompetent.

All of the hypothetical are just to show how important selecting language is for a Trust. The seemingly small nuances in drafting can wreak havoc if done incorrectly. Many situations are similar but no two are the same. Your situation now will not be your situation ten years from now. Failing to address those what-ifs is usually the difference between cookie cutter documents and having a lawyer you can call.

Of course, I could think of a crazy number of different examples just limited to Gun Trusts, but the important take-away is that it is imperative to have as many what-ifs covered in the initial documentation and then to update the Trust as some of those what-ifs come into being. Ideally, your Trust is well written enough that even if you don't have time to update it, it can take care of the issue. That continual update is part of 'Trust Administration' which includes assuring that the assets of the Trust are protected and the language is updated to reflect the changes in life circumstances. That is part of your duty as a Trustor and further part of the duties of the co-Trustees to the beneficiaries. The Trust is a living document which can and should be changed to reflect what issues and problems you have or anticipate having with yourself, your co-Trustees, successor Trustees and beneficiaries. Unless it is an irrevocable Trust, in which case the much of it is set in stone, but again, I digress. You and all your co-Trustees operate together to ensure that the maximum benefit is given to the beneficiaries. Your successor Trustees make sure the beneficiaries actually get the benefit. That means that those who are harming the Trust get removed (prohibited persons, debtors, etc.). The Trustor being the exception as they have the power to remove everyone else and revoke the Trust. Then again, this all depends on the language and type of Trust being created.

NOTE: THIS IS A GROSS SIMPLIFICATION FOR ILLUSTRATIVE PURPOSES ONLY AND IS NOT LEGAL ADVICE. IT IS FOR FUN AND ENTERTAINMENT PURPOSES ONLY.