Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #141
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
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    9244992

    Default Re: Iron City Armory Owner Arrested - Goodbye FFL

    I wouldn't even let him work on my tires.
    Toujours prêt

  2. #142
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
    Age
    61
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    2,883
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    4681004

    Default Re: Iron City Armory Owner Arrested - Goodbye FFL

    Those other people in the meeting don't look too dressed up either. Just saying...

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus99 View Post
    LOL, what business owner goes to an important meeting dressed like that? It's probably his baseball cap on the table too.
    "Having a gun and thinking you are armed is like having a piano and thinking you are a musician" Col. Jeff Cooper (U.S.M.C. Ret.)
    Speed is fine, Accuracy is final


  3. #143
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Washington Pa
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    269
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    1651377

    Default Re: Iron City Armory Owner Arrested - Goodbye FFL

    Here is the article from the Observer Reporter

    http://www.observer-reporter.com/201...erating_permit

    Iron City Armory LLC, doing business as Iron City Gun Club, is permitted to operate in Robinson Township as of last Friday.

    After hearing testimony in December, Washington County President Judge Katherine B. Emery decided in favor of Iron City Armory of 920 King Road, Bulger, noting Robinson Township Zoning Officer Mark Dorsey issued the business a zoning permit last April as long as members had passed both a firearms safety class and a Pennsylvania Instate Check System background test.

    The township at that time prohibited sales, gun testing, rentals or other commercial endeavors and “activities related to any federal firearms license.”

    With its permit granted, the principal owner, Jason Doetzer, completed substantial renovations and opened as a gun club in May of last year.

    The township issued a notice of violation and cease and desist order to the club June 2. An undercover operation run by the McDonald police department in July discovered Iron City was selling ammunition and targets.

    Several neighbors, concerned about noise and their safety, objected to having a shooting range near their homes and filed a challenge to the zoning permit. The township zoning hearing board Aug. 29 sided with the neighbors, saying shooting ranges and related facilities are not allowed to operate in what the township labels an Interchange Business Development district because of the toll road known locally as the Southern Beltway.

    Doetzer took the township to court last fall, and in a brief the zoning hearing board later submitted to the court, it conceded noncommercial gun clubs and shooting ranges are allowed to operate in the Interchange Business Development district. On this basis, the judge reversed the Aug. 29 decision of the zoning hearing board.

    Emery found important findings of fact and conclusions of law were not supported by evidence and the zoning hearing board committed legal errors in revoking the gun club’s permit.

    The judge found no evidence Iron City was engaging in gun testing or gun rentals. The zoning hearing board cited an advertisement on Iron City’s website referring to gun rentals, but that posting was incorrect.

    Doetzer “testified that it was his intention to attempt to rent guns at that location if he was able to obtain a variance on the permit, but no rentals were taking place at the time the revocation occurred,” Emery noted. “Testimony by the police officers did not support a finding that any gun testing or gun rentals occurred” at the 300-acre property. … “It is not a violation of the permit conditions to apply for a federal firearms license; it is a violation to sell or rent guns.”

    The judge cited testimony at the hearing that more than 90 percent of Iron City’s revenue derives from memberships to the gun club, to which the township and zoning hearing board do not object on the basis of commercial activity. Emery found sale of bottled water and targets is, if anything, a minimal violation that does not warrant the revocation of a zoning permit.

    The sale of ammunition could rise above a minimal violation “if the sales were substantial and prolonged, but given the short time the club was in operation prior to the revocation of the permit,” the court found the sale of ammunition a minor issue. But the judge cautioned, “The court would advise Iron City to cease all future ammunition sales.”

    In background information, Emery wrote the property had been called the Greater Pittsburgh Gun Club since 1968. It ceased to operate in 2008 when the owners, Joseph Freund and his sister, Constance Freund, were indicted and convicted of criminal activity and were no longer permitted to possess, sell or use firearms. Doetzer reached an agreement with the Freunds in 2016 to lease the premises with an option to purchase.
    I don't think the fight is over. If Robinson Township ever audits his members records for that PICS check being conducted he is screwed. My understanding is unless there is a gunsale involved you can't run a PICS Check.

    I also gaurentee that Jason isn't doing any kind of background check or safety class to new members out there since he is the only certified RSO and is changing tires now.

  4. #144
    Join Date
    Jan 2016
    Location
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
    Posts
    205
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    8031747

    Default Re: Iron City Armory Owner Arrested - Goodbye FFL

    Am I reading this correctly ? Are they required by law to do a pics check to use the range ?

  5. #145
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Pleasant Gap, Pennsylvania
    (Centre County)
    Posts
    368
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    Default Re: Iron City Armory Owner Arrested - Goodbye FFL

    Wow you guys are right, something seems pretty far off in this story. The 'safety class' thing I can understand and generally is probably a 30 second talk followed by signing some kind of waiver. The PICS check thought seems absurd and totally not kosher, why would he ever agree to that? Although I can probably answer my own question in that it doesn't sound like we're dealing with the brightest bulbs here and it seems like they would have said or done anything to get this place open asap.

    It's funny to me that all these "locals" are just now concerned about safety when this place operated at a gun club for decades. I can't say I blame them as I wouldn't want to live next to a range either but just come out and say it then.

  6. #146
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Bridgeville, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
    Age
    68
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    3,335
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    7718490

    Default Re: Iron City Armory Owner Arrested - Goodbye FFL

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus99 View Post
    Wow you guys are right, something seems pretty far off in this story. The 'safety class' thing I can understand and generally is probably a 30 second talk followed by signing some kind of waiver. The PICS check thought seems absurd and totally not kosher, why would he ever agree to that? Although I can probably answer my own question in that it doesn't sound like we're dealing with the brightest bulbs here and it seems like they would have said or done anything to get this place open asap.

    It's funny to me that all these "locals" are just now concerned about safety when this place operated at a gun club for decades. I can't say I blame them as I wouldn't want to live next to a range either but just come out and say it then.
    The locals started complaining right after they started building their new homes. I had a guy come up to me holding a spent round. I showed him the backstop was 15 feet high with no metal to cause a riccochet. He didn't respond when I told him the gun club was there long before he was.
    I'm not sure if there was someone shooting down in the hole but think that area probably lined up with where he was. There was some sacrificial steel down there cratered up pretty good. Maybe from there.
    Opinions are like anal apertures. Everyone has one. They all stink but mine.

  7. #147
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Lancaster, Pennsylvania
    (Lancaster County)
    Age
    49
    Posts
    3,956
    Rep Power
    21474850

    Default Re: Iron City Armory Owner Arrested - Goodbye FFL

    I love when people build next to a gun club, farm or airport and then complain.

  8. #148
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
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    Default Re: Iron City Armory Owner Arrested - Goodbye FFL

    To be fair, the place had been shut down for a decade or more.
    GROUP SHOOT THISSaturday!!! (Oct 21 - Details Here) All WELCOME!

  9. #149
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Bridgeville, Pennsylvania
    (Allegheny County)
    Age
    68
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    7718490

    Default Re: Iron City Armory Owner Arrested - Goodbye FFL

    Quote Originally Posted by Emptymag View Post
    To be fair, the place had been shut down for a decade or more.
    Yes but it's not the only place this happens.
    Collier Sportsmans club has also been around a long time.
    When Nevillewood started building, the same thing occurred with new residents complaining about noise and safety concerns.
    As posted, the new residents at Greater Pitt complained to the township. I'm no expert but does the decade shutdown give the residents more right to keep it shut down or as happened, another entity wanted to give it a try. The business was there for 50 years prior.
    We, as shooters should try to keep ranges open and not want to see failure because the owner is changing tires.
    No one seems to like the owner. I get that and won't spend the money to join unless the cost to use that range drops substantially.
    It is a great location for a shitpot full of shooters.
    If it becomes a viable place to shoot and would have any kind of legal longevity I would jump on joining at half the current cost.
    Tex had quite a few legal issues going on for a few years before it was shut down. There were still classes there and the range restrictions were about the same as PMSC although full auto was not prohibited.
    I got all of my NRA certs there and shot IDPA as well.
    The owner of IC isn't much different and many wouldn't go there for that reason alone.
    I bought a gun from Tex. I bought a gun from Jason.
    Neither one were problematic to deal with for me.
    I suppose I look at it selfishly as to what works for me.

    The place is an absolute shithole but I would rejoin for a closer place to shoot. I don't need to use the clubhouse. I don't shoot trap. I just want a place to do pistol, rifle and have a place to dump if needed.
    Now. All that bullshit is just my opinion and you all know how I feel about those.
    Opinions are like anal apertures. Everyone has one. They all stink but mine.

  10. #150
    Join Date
    Dec 2016
    Location
    Pleasant Gap, Pennsylvania
    (Centre County)
    Posts
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    4900045

    Default Re: Iron City Armory Owner Arrested - Goodbye FFL

    This reminds me of when I was house shopping recently. We had made an offer on a home and as we are walking around with the realtor we started hearing gun fire and what sounded like a cannon or some large explosion coming from the woods across the road. Our realtor was mortified hahaha. We kept telling her "we're gun people, it's not that big of a deal" but she was really flustered and started calling the listing agent and all this stuff. We never bought the home but it was just funny. It wasn't a shooting range or club, just someone having fun at their camp or farm.

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