White House statement on upcoming EO

[Bluesilver]

So this is my first post. I signed up a little while ago mainly to keep track of what threads I haven't read. Anyways I try to keep current with news and I've been concerned over the overreaching threat of an EO and all that it would entail. Browsing the news I stumbled on a link for a Whitehouse .gov statement.

It's rather long winded, but from what I gather doesn't impose any immediate threats or disruptions to how buisness is conducted. Granted I feel it's all infringement on our rights, however it seems to me to be more of a feel good liberal spin.

Anyways here's the link.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...e-and-make-our

[S.Austin10]

A person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms regardless of the location in which firearm transactions are conducted. For example, a person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms even if the person only conducts firearm transactions at gun shows or through the Internet. Those engaged in the business of dealing in firearms who utilize the Internet or other technologies must obtain a license, just as a dealer whose business is run out of a traditional brick-and-mortar store.
◦ Quantity and frequency of sales are relevant indicators. There is no specific threshold number of firearms purchased or sold that triggers the licensure requirement. But it is important to note that even a few transactions, when combined with other evidence, can be sufficient to establish that a person is “engaged in the business.” For example, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when as few as two firearms were sold or when only one or two transactions took place, when other factors also were present.
◦ There are criminal penalties for failing to comply with these requirements. A person who willfully engages in the business of dealing in firearms without the required license is subject to criminal prosecution and can be sentenced up to five years in prison and fined up to $250,000. Dealers are also subject to penalties for failing to conduct background checks before completing a sale.


So if I am reading this correctly this states that if I sell 2 firearms privately in a year and I don't have an FFL I can be thrown in prison for 5 years.

[ShooterInPA1]

A person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms regardless of the location in which firearm transactions are conducted. For example, a person can be engaged in the business of dealing in firearms even if the person only conducts firearm transactions at gun shows or through the Internet. Those engaged in the business of dealing in firearms who utilize the Internet or other technologies must obtain a license, just as a dealer whose business is run out of a traditional brick-and-mortar store.
◦ Quantity and frequency of sales are relevant indicators. There is no specific threshold number of firearms purchased or sold that triggers the licensure requirement. But it is important to note that even a few transactions, when combined with other evidence, can be sufficient to establish that a person is “engaged in the business.” For example, courts have upheld convictions for dealing without a license when as few as two firearms were sold or when only one or two transactions took place, when other factors also were present.
◦ There are criminal penalties for failing to comply with these requirements. A person who willfully engages in the business of dealing in firearms without the required license is subject to criminal prosecution and can be sentenced up to five years in prison and fined up to $250,000. Dealers are also subject to penalties for failing to conduct background checks before completing a sale.


So if I am reading this correctly this states that if I sell 2 firearms privately in a year and I don't have an FFL I can be thrown in prison for 5 years.

Indeed you are.

Obama's goal is not to prevent any crimes from happening; it is to CREATE new criminals where none existed before.

[S.Austin10]

Indeed you are.

Obama's goal is not to prevent any crimes from happening; it is to CREATE new criminals where none existed before.

Even if I conduct the sale through an FFL and there is a background check performed on the buyer?

[ShooterInPA1]

Even if I conduct the sale through an FFL and there is a background check performed on the buyer?

Their immediate goal is a background check on everyone.....with confiscation being their long-term goal.

But the 2A was put into place to prevent tyranny. After all, there is no duck hunting provision nor is there a target shooting clause in the 2A. If indeed it was put into place to prevent tyranny, then allowing the government to know who owns guns is completely antithetical to the 2A. If universal background checks had been in place at the time this nation was founded, the founding fathers would have been executed by the British with that information.

[Bluesilver]

Their immediate goal is a background check on everyone.....with confiscation being their long-term goal.

I agree 100%. I suppose my relief is the rumors of hefty ammo taxes (in lines with Seattle), ammo restrictions (New York proposed legislation), or any redefining of current legal firearms isn't in this "fact" sheet.

Here's hoping Paul Ryan doesn't just roll over on his statements today. Better yet this "common sense" legislation burns democratic chances for the White House.

[pyld]

So, it's going to be more impotent than we thought.

Again--this is the statutory definition of "engaged in the business"

(21) The term “engaged in the business” means—
(A) as applied to a manufacturer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms manufactured;
(B) as applied to a manufacturer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to manufacturing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition manufactured;
(C) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(A), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms;
(D) as applied to a dealer in firearms, as defined in section 921(a)(11)(B), a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit, but such term shall not include a person who makes occasional repairs of firearms, or who occasionally fits special barrels, stocks, or trigger mechanisms to firearms;
(E) as applied to an importer of firearms, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to importing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the firearms imported; and
(F) as applied to an importer of ammunition, a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to importing ammunition as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution of the ammunition imported.

Why is the bolded stuff important, you ask?

The whole thing about "being location agnostic" does not matter. It has always been against the law to be a dealer in firearms who is engaged in the business without an FFL. If you were "a person who devotes time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the principal objective of livelihood and profit through the repetitive purchase and resale of firearms," it did not matter that you did so over the internet or at a gun show--you already required an FFL.

Further, the law says

The term “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as "The term “with the principal objective of livelihood and profit” means that the intent underlying the sale or disposition of firearms is predominantly one of obtaining livelihood and pecuniary gain, as opposed to other intents, such as improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection

I've said this elsewhere--there are probably guys on Armslist and certainly guys at gun shows who were likely breaking the law. What I believe is coming tomorrow is Obama throwing a tantrum and saying "okay, now we will try to make an example of someone" and/or waving his hands in the air and yelling "gun show" and "internet!" For people who were buying and selling long guns (in PA) private party for reasons of "improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection" or are a person who "makes occasional sales, exchanges, or purchases of firearms for the enhancement of a personal collection or for a hobby, or who sells all or part of his personal collection of firearms" will not be effected by this no matter how much screaming Obama does, because when it gets to court the letter of the law is plain. I think that's why that fact sheet is squishy about numbers--because they know that someone who is not making money who they take to court could've sold 10 guns and been "improving or liquidating a personal firearms collection" and it's probably (in the case of an innocent) going to be difficult to prove otherwise.

That's my take. Maybe he does overreach, but that fact sheet gives me a somewhat warm feeling that he's impotent and it'll be mostly sound and noise. Any hard limits that contradict anything in the statute will be swiftly challenged, I'm sure.

[unclejumbo]

http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=295720

Sorry new guy, you missed it by this much...