The Registration that's not a Registration

[bigandy1966]

But didn't SCOTUS just throw the whole firearms and interpretation of the 2A back to the states? SO the PA State says the FedGov insists on a registry, but the FedGov says States decide what happens inside the boundaries. Catch 22?
Yeah this whole thing is not what we want to run to the courts at this time.
All you "Voting doesn't make any difference"can suck it and Smile for seconds.
Judges are your worst nightmare and you got a whole shitload of Federal appointees from Obama and 8 years of elected PASC on your plate now for the next 20 years because of your phlegmatic apathy. Remember this, Anyone who Doesnt vote, its a vote for the democrats because they will get out and out vote us in the urban and suburban areas because voting places are convenient, and plentiful. Out there in the sticks most people have to drive 20-30 miles to get to a polling point. So they sit at home and piss and moan about how voting doesnt make a difference any more. Its how entire states are run from urban areas.

[tl_3237]

Uhh, no...that's not how that works.

Section 6111(b)(1) does refer only to handguns.
Section 6111(b)(1.1) is broken into multiple smaller specifications because (1.1)(i) is specific to longarms and cannot be lumped into (b)(1). This subsection and this one alone would not apply to a handgun sale, but as per "all of the following shall apply," (ii), (iii), (iv) and (v) all apply to handgun sales.

I mean, I am not correcting you...I am saying SCOPA was erroneous. Perhaps that's what the lawyer meant when he said the Allegheny case was poorly litigated.

Did you read the lengthy SCOPA decision discussing the interpretation?

It is not for the faint of heart since it uses a plethora of the canons of statutory interpretation as well as legal terms of art in its twisting to reach the desired conclusion but it does sorta answer demurs such as yours.

[GunLawyer001]

What SCOPA determined is that the section (18 Pa CS 6111(1.1)) and thus (v) is limited to longarm sales ONLY:



The final ruling was an en banc decision shown in ALLEGHENY CTY. SPORTSMEN'S LEAGUE v. Rendell, 860 A. 2d 10 - Pa: Supreme Court 2004 with a lengthy discussion as to their rationale



As to (v) it holds no influence as to how the records are kept or digitized for handguns - (v) is not applicable to handguns.

The hell of it is, the Court was kind of right about the distinction. Not so much about "it's not registration if it's not 100%", but about the intent of the paragraphs, and the clear separation between "what to do about handguns" and "what to do about long guns":

(b) Duty of seller.--No licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer shall sell or deliver any firearm to another person, other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer or licensed collector, until the conditions of subsection (a) have been satisfied and until he has:

(1) For purposes of a firearm as defined in section 6102 (relating to definitions), obtained a completed application/record of sale from the potential buyer or transferee to be filled out in triplicate, the original copy to be sent to the Pennsylvania State Police, postmarked via first class mail, within 14 days of the sale, one copy to be retained by the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer for a period of 20 years and one copy to be provided to the purchaser or transferee. The form of this application/record of sale shall be no more than one page in length and shall be promulgated by the Pennsylvania State Police and provided by the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer. The application/record of sale shall include the name, address, birthdate, gender, race, physical description and Social Security number of the purchaser or transferee, the date of the application and the caliber, length of barrel, make, model and manufacturer's number of the firearm to be purchased or transferred. The application/record of sale shall also contain the following question:
Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s), as defined under 18 Pa.C.S. § 6102 (relating to definitions), listed on this application/record of sale? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person, unless you are legitimately acquiring the firearm as a gift for any of the following individuals who are legally eligible to own a firearm:
(1) spouse;
(2) parent;
(3) child;
(4) grandparent; or
(5) grandchild.

(1.1) On the date of publication in the Pennsylvania Bulletin of a notice by the Pennsylvania State Police that the instantaneous records check has been implemented, all of the following shall apply:
(i) In the event of an electronic failure under section 6111.1(b)(2) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police) for purposes of a firearm which exceeds the barrel and related lengths set forth in section 6102, obtained a completed application/record of sale from the potential buyer or transferee to be filled out in triplicate, the original copy to be sent to the Pennsylvania State Police, postmarked via first class mail, within 14 days of sale, one copy to be retained by the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer for a period of 20 years and one copy to be provided to the purchaser or transferee.
(ii) The form of the application/record of sale shall be no more than one page in length and shall be promulgated by the Pennsylvania State Police and provided by the licensed importer, licensed manufacturer or licensed dealer.
(iii) For purposes of conducting the criminal history, juvenile delinquency and mental health records background check which shall be completed within ten days of receipt of the information from the dealer, the application/record of sale shall include the name, address, birthdate, gender, race, physical description and Social Security number of the purchaser or transferee and the date of application.
(iv) No information regarding the type of firearm need be included other than an indication that the firearm exceeds the barrel lengths set forth in section 6102.
(v) Unless it has been discovered pursuant to a criminal history, juvenile delinquency and mental health records background check that the potential purchaser or transferee is prohibited from possessing a firearm pursuant to section 6105 (relating to persons not to possess, use, manufacture, control, sell or transfer firearms), no information on the application/record of sale provided pursuant to this subsection shall be retained as precluded by section 6111.4 (relating to registration of firearms) by the Pennsylvania State Police either through retention of the application/record of sale or by entering the information onto a computer, and, further, an application/record of sale received by the Pennsylvania State Police pursuant to this subsection shall be destroyed within 72 hours of the completion of the criminal history, juvenile delinquency and mental health records background check.

[ViperGTS19801]

Well, there it is. I was wrong.

Shit. Thanks, Phil.

[vinnyg101]

And Nancy is right, we must hold our elected officals accountable, who have done NOTHING to stop this BS. Rep inbound.

It seem that the Keystone Cops are maintaining a database and blaming the legislative branch for their actions... such honor is so common.

[TaePo]

I am misunderstanding something, so please clarify.

To me, a long gun purchase means filling out a 4473 Federal form. A handgun (or sbs/sbr) means getting the 4473 and a SP-4 state form filled out.

Now, at what point does an SP-4 get filled and filed for a long gun? What is the electronic failure that they are referring to? Does it mean if PICS is down or dead; all sales require an SP-4?

Thanks.

[pyld]

I mean, I am not correcting you...I am saying SCOPA was erroneous. Perhaps that's what the lawyer meant when he said the Allegheny case was poorly litigated.

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[tl_3237]

I am misunderstanding something, so please clarify.

To me, a long gun purchase means filling out a 4473 Federal form. A handgun (or sbs/sbr) means getting the 4473 and a SP-4 state form filled out.

Now, at what point does an SP-4 get filled and filed for a long gun? What is the electronic failure that they are referring to? Does it mean if PICS is down or dead; all sales require an SP-4?

Thanks.

Basically PICS down for >48 hours then an SP4-113 supplements the 4473 for longarms.

18 Pa CS 6111.1(b)(2) In the event of electronic failure, scheduled computer downtime or similar event beyond the control of the Pennsylvania State Police, the Pennsylvania State Police shall immediately notify the requesting licensee of the reason for and estimated length of the delay. If the failure or event lasts for a period exceeding 48 hours, the dealer shall not be subject to any penalty for completing a transaction absent the completion of an instantaneous records check for the remainder of the failure or similar event, but the dealer shall obtain a completed application/record of sale following the provisions of section 6111(b)(1) and (1.1) (relating to sale or transfer of firearms) as if an instantaneous records check has not been established for any sale or transfer of a firearm for the purpose of a subsequent background check.

[Qtrborecrazy]

So whats the outcome, don't bring a case for the next 20 years because SCOPA controlled by dems, or hold our elected officals feet to the fire?

[streaker69]

So whats the outcome, don't bring a case for the next 20 years because SCOPA controlled by dems, or hold our elected officals feet to the fire?

The legislature is just going to say that the law is there and it's in the hands of the court to sort it out. Or they could have pull the head of the PSP before a committee and grill him, because we've seen how well that works on getting issues resolved.