Expunged Records and CCW

**Towerdog412** · October 24th, 2015, 10:01 PM

I am 30 years old. When I was 14 I was adjudicated delinquent for a felony that falls under Section 6105(b) as a disqualification for the CCW (aggravated assault). In the next two months the matter will be expunged. I have in the past 5 years been approved to purchase 2 firearms legally through gun shops. I have been pulled over on my way to the range with my firearms and the police have run the serial numbers and my name and have been ok with me having them in my truck (obviously not concealed, I told them where I was going and I had them so I don't have any more problems) and with me possessing them. I have requested my record from the PSP and it comes back as "No record" when I applied for it online though PATCH. As an adult I had a misdemeanor 7 years ago and went through ARD and that also is in the process of being expunged. The misdemeanor was for simple assault. My question is, would I be ok to apply for a permit once the expungements are competed. I will be honest on the application either way, I also wonder if the expungement even matters since they will probably be able to see it since it was in the same county as I am applying in or NCIC. As things get worse around us I would like to protect myself legally. I will contact a lawyer if need be but figured I'd reach out and seek some advice. Also in paragraph 8 does the statute of being 30 or 15 years being lapsed apply to my situation.

**pyld** · October 25th, 2015, 01:47 AM

The only way to definitively answer this without applying and potentially being put in legal jeopardy for an incorrect answer on the application is to consult an attorney who knows about these things.

**Jhaydeno** · October 25th, 2015, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by pyld

The only way to definitively answer this without applying and potentially being put in legal jeopardy for an incorrect answer on the application is to consult an attorney who knows about these things.

I don't believe there's any legal jeopardy in applying for an LTCF, unlike the purchasing process where the PSP may show up at your door should you fail! He should clear all the LTCF paperwork hurdles if he's cleared PICS twice, but there's still the character clause, which allows the sheriff to use his judgement based upon your history.

**pyld** · October 25th, 2015, 10:07 AM

Originally Posted by Jhaydeno

I don't believe there's any legal jeopardy in applying for an LTCF, unlike the purchasing process where the PSP may show up at your door should you fail! He should clear all the LTCF paperwork hurdles if he's cleared PICS twice, but there's still the character clause, which allows the sheriff to use his judgement based upon your history.

Can you give me your thoughts on box 33 of the application, to wit:

I have never been convicted of a crime that prohibits me from possessing or acquiring a firearm under Federal or State law. I am of sound mind and have never been committed to a mental institution or mental health care facility. I hereby certify that the statements contained herein are true and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief. I understand that if I knowingly make any false statements herein, I am subject to penalties prescribed by law. I authorize the sheriff, or his designee, or, in the case of first class cities, the chief or head of the police department, or his designee, to inspect only those records or documents relevant to information required for this application. If I am issued a license and knowingly become ineligible to legally possess or acquire firearms, I will promptly notify the sheriff of the county in which I reside or, if I reside in a city of the first class, the chief of police of that city. This certification is made subject to both the penalties of § 4904 of the Crimes Code, 18 Pa.C.S., relating to unsworn falsifications to authorities and the Uniform Firearms Act.

Now, the language in that paragraph would lead me to a lawyer if inward unsure. Ymmv.

**Towerdog412** · October 25th, 2015, 09:22 PM

There are some fine lines in the definitions being that my possible diaualification is not a "conviction" being that I was a juvenile. They consider it "adjudicated delinquent" a conviction is only considered if tried as an adult. I have served in the military and owned weopens for a number of years now so hopefully that helps. I just don't want to waste anyone's time in applying and raise a red flag. You would almost think that if I could own I could carry but not everything makes sense when it comes to the government of any sort.

**PAMedic=F|A=** · October 25th, 2015, 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by Towerdog412

There are some fine lines in the definitions being that my possible diaualification is not a "conviction" being that I was a juvenile. They consider it "adjudicated delinquent" a conviction is only considered if tried as an adult. I have served in the military and owned weopens for a number of years now so hopefully that helps. I just don't want to waste anyone's time in applying and raise a red flag. You would almost think that if I could own I could carry but not everything makes sense when it comes to the government of any sort.

If you could legally carry well in the military you should be good to go, so far as any federal restrictions go.

But again, I am not a lawyer. I would Speak to a pa firearms lawyer.

**QuackXP** · October 26th, 2015, 12:45 PM

I thought the only difference between PICS check for purchase and PICS check for LTCF was related to drug use?

If either assault where prohibiting you from getting a LTCF it should also have prevented you from purchase five years ago. But I am not a lawyer and if you feel you may have trouble getting a LTCF I would consult one before you apply.

You do have to worry about the Sheriff hitting you on character clause for the assaults but that is a whole other issue.

**Jhaydeno** · October 26th, 2015, 03:36 PM

Originally Posted by pyld

Can you give me your thoughts on box 33 of the application, to wit:

I have never been convicted of a crime that prohibits me from possessing or acquiring a firearm under Federal or State law. I am of sound mind and have never been committed to a mental institution or mental health care facility. I hereby certify that the statements contained herein are true and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief. I understand that if I knowingly make any false statements herein, I am subject to penalties prescribed by law. I authorize the sheriff, or his designee, or, in the case of first class cities, the chief or head of the police department, or his designee, to inspect only those records or documents relevant to information required for this application. If I am issued a license and knowingly become ineligible to legally possess or acquire firearms, I will promptly notify the sheriff of the county in which I reside or, if I reside in a city of the first class, the chief of police of that city. This certification is made subject to both the penalties of § 4904 of the Crimes Code, 18 Pa.C.S., relating to unsworn falsifications to authorities and the Uniform Firearms Act.

Now, the language in that paragraph would lead me to a lawyer if inward unsure. Ymmv.

While I agree the situation is ambiguous, what is the net result? They can't charge you with trying to purchase a firearm, because you aren't, you are just trying to procure a LTCF.

I would argue that an adjudicated delinquent charge has not prohibited him from 'possessing or acquiring' a firearm, so his current knowledge and belief is of the same.

Not that he would be making a false statement, but what are the repercussions of making a false statement to the sheriff? Can your sheriff press charges? Many aren't even able to write traffic tickets in the State of PA (though they are an arm of the court, and may have a judge's ear). Finally, this is considered and unsworn statement, not a sworn statement. I'll dig a little deeper into 4904 to see what the consequences would be.

PS I'm not a lawyer either!

**sawbog** · November 3rd, 2015, 11:49 PM

So you have two assault charges and now you want to carry a concealed weapon? Are you sure you're done assaulting people? I don't mean to sound like a pompous jerk but I get tired of people giving antis more reasons to want to infringe on my 2A rights. If you do get the second assault charge expunged, which would be really odd, please don't let us down by doing something stupid the next time someone pisses you off.