Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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Thread: Legal confusion

  1. #1
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    Default Legal confusion

    I am new here and am not sure even this is the right place to post this thought.

    I have read both our Constitution and our Bill of Rights. I am however unable to find in it where it allows anyone to limit who can own or possess arms of any sort. I always thought that they were unalienable rights off all citizens. I did not think that any government agency at state or federal level was authorized to modify or otherwise distort the words written.

    I still do not see where if a person commits a crime of any sort the constitution or bill of rights allows for them to have any of their rights removed permanently.

    I do not remember seeing a list of crimes on either of those documents that would make it ok for any government to say oh you did this as child so you cannot own a gun or even ammunition for the remainder of your life.

    However, you could easily kill people with readily available items if you so desired and never need a permit or license to do it. Look at bin ladin he was not even from this country and is responsible for thousands of deaths without the use of a gun.

    Recently I was approved for my license to carry here in PA. The letter that came to inform me to go and pay more money and pick it up stated very clearly that being able to carry consealed was a privilege not a right and it could be revoked at any time. The paper indicated if I carried openly they would likely take my LTFA away entirely. It also said I should only carry when I thought it was absolutely necessary and not full time. It pointed out I could not use my LTFA for professional use without going through more background checks and education as well as paying more fees for act235.

    I wonder though if I was paid as an unarmed guard if my LTFA allows me to carry for personal protection. If someone was to threaten my life if I could use my personal weapon to defend myself. Am I not allowed to carry a weapon without act 235 certification if I am dressed and employed as a security guard (paid as unarmed).

    Seems to me it is a fine line there too. The only difference I see is how my employer would be paying me as an armed guard or an unarmed guard. The armed guard would obviously be in OC mode.

    I am very confused over the legal side of the constitution and the bill of rights as it seems they have both been changed so much that they no longer mean what they were intended to mean.

    I read somewhere that Thomas Jefferson stated it is not only every man's right to keep and bear arms it is his obligation to do so at all times. That was separate from any militia activity he was speaking of.

    Understood this was before the advent of fully automatic weapons and chemical or nuclear warfare but I believe it was a reference to firearms in general.

    Besides, When is the last time you heard a Criminal state they would not do something for the sole reason that to do so would be to break the law. These laws hurt the citizens of this country and do not effect the criminal element at all.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Legal confusion

    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin3824 View Post
    The paper indicated if I carried openly they would likely take my LTFA away entirely.
    I will save the response about the Constitutionality of limiting the people’s right to bear arms for the people who have more Constitutional knowledge than I.

    However, I would love to see you post this letter you received. I find it interesting that the county would say they would take your License to Carry a Firearm away if you carried openly… especially since carrying openly is legal regardless of a License to Carry a Firearm. Please scan and post this letter if you can, as having a copy of it might prove useful to those of us who advocate the fair treatment of open carriers.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Legal confusion

    The sheriff calls them Concealed Carry Permits on his website.

    Sorry, no LTCF application data available on-line.

    Scan and post that letter, please!

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Legal confusion

    Oh lord, now another county sheriff with this garbage...
    LOL, I am a woman...

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Legal confusion

    Kevin3824, regarding all the constitutional stuff you mentioned, you are correct. Look up ex post facto law and bill of attainder. Both are outlawed, yet both federal and state governments violate the constitution here. Your rights infringed? You betcha! What can you do? Write to your state and federal representatives, that's about all.

    As for carrying a concealed firearm while serving as an unarmed security guard, that's a good way to get fired. Even if it's a valid shooting, you'd still get fired. Employers don't like it when employees saddle them with a humongous liability. You'd get fired. You'd be alive, but you'd also be unemployed.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Legal confusion

    I work in Pike County. In fact, I spend the overwhelming majority of my waking hours there and have done so for a decade or so.

    Pike County is packed full of NYC and Jersey transplants. I would say that close to 85% (maybe more) of the residents of the whole county are "city" transplants (or the offspring of city transplants); more arrive every year. Milford (which is also the County Seat) is considered by some to be 'the East Village West'.

    Occasionally (and by this I mean almost never), I do Open Carry there. However, just about everyone I know there is against carrying firearms at all. Very probably, the only reason I haven't had a police encounter is because people like me - they like me a lot. That, and I don't think I've ever been spotted by the police open carrying.

    If I am awake, and in Pennsylvania, chances are incredible that I am armed. Meaning here, I carry in Pike County near continuously. I have one co-worker that would like to carry but the Sheriff's Department has scared him off from applying for his LTCF - and successfully made him *petrified* to OC. He thinks I am crazy and will wind up in jail one of these days (for lawfully carrying a firearm).

    I've known about Open Carry being legal in Pennsylvania since around 1997 - before I moved here. But, since I spent so much of my time in Pike County, I've hardly ever met another person who carries - let alone Openly Carries. I wish, just for one week, everyone who owned a handgun in Pike County would Open Carry. While there would be mass hysteria by the sheeple, at least the truth about the law would come out and it would prove to a lot of people I know there that I am not completely insane.


    Edit: I feel I should include here that: Milford (in Pike County) is located along the Delaware River and borders New Jersey. Westfall (the tiny next town East) is also along the Jersey border and Matamoras (Eastbound, just past Westfall) borders Port Jervis, New York along the Delaware - which is about 8 miles from Milford. So, Milford is 'practically' (for all intents and purposes) considered 'on the border' of NY and NJ. It is a beautiful 'valley' area and a 'summer vacation hot spot' for NYC people - lots of 'summer' homes. The population soars during the summer months. So - a lot of these people just don't really 'get it' that they are in Pennsylvania. The ones that do realize it but refuse to change (thier philosophies or acceptance of Pennsylvania Law) just call thier new home State "Pennsyltucky".
    .
    Last edited by Bruce; August 1st, 2008 at 08:58 PM. Reason: Description of Milford
    Cogito, ergo armatus sum.
    ...Say that to my face.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Legal confusion

    And I thought MD people were bad...but the truth is that MD is chock full of conservatives, gun owners, and hunters, but they seldom move as a full group. I tend to meet with hunters mostly, since I am a taxidermist- there are alot of hunters in Balto county! Most don't come to me for whatever reasons ( alot of other taxidermists to choose from), but I know they are out there. There are even GASP trappers in this county! Not many, but I am one of them. Probably if OC was legal in northern Baltimore county, it wouldn't freak people out as much as you would think it would. I'd be safe to say that nearly every household around here has at least 1 gun in it, and I know of some locals who have collections. The fact that no one has complained about my target shooting in the full year since it started, esp the 3 hour session last sunday, shows that the people here- even the more recent city transplants- see it as normal. I hear neighbors near and far doing it too sometimes, someone is always doing some session at least once a week.

    Wow, NJ sounds like it sucks LOL!
    LOL, I am a woman...

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Legal confusion

    Quote Originally Posted by XD40coyote View Post
    Wow, NJ sounds like it sucks LOL!
    Not sure if there is a misunderstanding here or not, but - Milford is in Pennsylvania. It is just full of transplants from Jersey and NYC.

    If you were commenting that Jersey people seem anti-firearm, then OMG yes - that would be a severe understatement.

    According to your average Jersey person, drugs and prostitution should be legalized but... guns? Only *criminals* should be able to get guns.

    I know - but it makes sense to them.
    .
    Cogito, ergo armatus sum.
    ...Say that to my face.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Legal confusion

    Yeah I meant the transplants, but since they came from NJ, NJ must suck if they all have that same attitude.
    LOL, I am a woman...

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Legal confusion

    I will send it to you as soon as I locate the corect pile it is in I know I have it as I saved it for reference to the ACT 235 reference in it for armed guard.

    As far as ccw as an unarmed guard I can understand the liabuility involved however what if I carried as a pizza delivery person would I need to have the act 235 certification there as well. I would never use the firearm unless I was in fear of my life or severe bodily injury to myself or family. I don't care much about the 20 dollar change bag but if they point a gun at me to get it that is a life threatening situation. In the past I have seen people jump out of pine trees with shotguns to rob a pizza delivery person.

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