Traffic stop. Legally owned firearm confiscated.

[adalwulf222]

Hi folks. I am a new member here and this is my second post. This post is the primary reason for me joining here. I had a difficult encounter with local law enforcement the other night.
It was around 0100 and I had just gotten off from work. A local police officer stopped me. As soon as the officer pulled behind me I signaled and pulled into an empty parking lot. I put my window down, turned off my car and turned on my interior lights. I then placed my hands on the steering wheel and waited. The officer approached my vehicle and asked for my license and registration. I informed the officer that my registration was in my passenger door pocket and I would be reaching to get it.
Before I reached for it, he asked if I had any firearms in the car. I responded that I did indeed. I told him I had two loaded pistols in my glove compartment and two locked and unloaded long arms in a case in my trunk. He then asked if I had a LTCF which I said that I did. He then asked me to wait while he called for back up.
I gave a fair amount of detail thus far to show that I was acting cautiously and respectfully. To keep this long story short...I was asked to step out of my car and patted down. The police officer removed my two handguns from my glove box and the rifle case from my trunk. The officer ran a check on me and/or the handguns. The handguns did not come up with any ownership record. The officer confiscated (although he argued he was holding it not confiscating it) one of my handguns. I was able to keep possession of the other bc I had the form from the sale in my car. I now have to go back to the police station with the form to prove ownership to recover my handgun.
This whole ordeal took over 2 hours. I have had several interactions with police while carrying, but never had one go to this extreme before. I also had several knives of varying types and sizes in a back pack in my back seat. They examined those as well and asked several questions.
Most of my previous dealings with LE have been pleasant. I have been more than happy to cooperate and things were pleasant and almost enjoyable. Usually ended up discussing firearms in a friendly manner.
This latest stop however slowly escalated. After about 45 mins or an hour I asked for a supervisor. I was informed, that he was the supervisor. I then politely voiced my displeasure with the way things were going. I stated that I had been more than cooperative and could not understand why I was being asked so many questions about my usage and ownership of legal items. I also quietly protested at the confiscation of a legal firearm that I carried as a constitutional right. I know the side of the road is not a courtroom so I kept my protests polite and concise. Things did relax a little and no one was rude nor disrespectful at any time.
I was really surprised by this whole ordeal and even more concerned about my rights than before. I am sorry for the lengthy post, I tried to keep it brief.

Two questions:
How legal was this confiscation and do I have any recourse?

If a local LEO claims to be the only supervisor available, can I seek additional assistance (i.e. State Police, or Sheriff's department)?

Thanks for reading and any possible response or suggestions.

Oh yeah, I got the speeding ticket too.

[rwilson452]

The officer is REQUIRED to give you a receipt for the firearm he took. If he didn't the officer is in violation of the law. I suppose you could file a complaint but I would contact a lawyer first. I would love to see that badge heavy so and so in hot water.

[adalwulf222]

I did get a proper receipt for it. From briefly looking online it seems it is 'legal' but considering the circumstances I feel it was highly unnecessary. Maybe next time I'll have to go with the less friendly remain silent option.

[twency]

Since you were out of the vehicle and no longer had access to the firearms at the time of the search and there was no reason to believe they were evidence of a crime, I would think the search and seizure would be illegal under the Fourth Amendment (particularly given Arizona v. Gant). Hopefully someone who know more about the law in this area will be along to comment.

[PAMedic=F|A=]

I did get a proper receipt for it. From briefly looking online it seems it is 'legal' but considering the circumstances I feel it was highly unnecessary. Maybe next time I'll have to go with the less friendly remain silent option.

This. I would get a lawyer. A good one. At the very least talk to Phil Kkine, who is a member here & a outstanding asset to this forum. Gunlawyer001. If he can not help, he can direct you.

IMO, they illegal stole your pistol, recept or not. A firearms registry is illegal in PA. Using the "data base" as probable cause to take your property because it was not registered, is unlawful & a violation of due process but also section 21 of the Commonwealth Consitution. In addition, as you already had a bill of sale for one firearm not in the "database" a reasonable person would assume the same of the other one IMO.

The courts ruled it was not an illegal registry because it was not complete (due to out of State guns, guns passed between family, & so on). As such it can not be used as proable cause to seize your property.

Like I said. Get. A. Lawyer.

Sue them into the ground. Demand every officer in the deptment attend their entire police course again, with additional studies in US & Penna Consitutional Law. Ask that they be required to follow the court rulings vs the city of Philly in regard to firearms. Hell, ask for an injection on them engaging in any contact with presumable my lawful firearms owners & require them to defer interactions to PSP or the local Constibles as they have shown a willful & wanton disregard for the laws, tr. Consitution of the Commonwealth, of these United States & of basic human rights.

Ask for suspension of immunity, & criminal charges for theft, as no person who knew the law could have believed their actions were legal & 800 years of legal precident requires officers of the law to know the law.

[twency]

This. I would get a lawyer. A good one. At the very least talk to Phil Kkine, who is a member here & a outstanding asset to this forum. Gunlawyer001. If he can not help, he can direct you.

IMO, they illegal stole your pistol, recept or not. A firearms registry is illegal in PA. Using the "data base" as probable cause to take your property because it was not registered, is unlawful & a violation of due process but also section 21 of the Commonwealth Consitution. In addition, as you already had a bill of sale for one firearm not in the "database" a reasonable person would assume the same of the other one IMO.

The courts ruled it was not an illegal registry because it was not complete (due to out of State guns, guns passed between family, & so on). As such it can not be used as proable cause to seize your property.

Like I said. Get. A. Lawyer.

Sue them into the ground. Demand every officer in the deptment attend their entire police course again, with additional studies in US & Penna Consitutional Law. Ask that they be required to follow the court rulings vs the city of Philly in regard to firearms. Hell, ask for an injection on them engaging in any contact with presumable my lawful firearms owners & require them to defer interactions to PSP or the local Constibles as they have shown a willful & wanton disregard for the laws, tr. Consitution of the Commonwealth, of these United States & of basic human rights.

Good advice above.

Here's a newsletter published by the Municipal Police Officers' Education and Training Commission (MPOETC) in December 2011 reminding local police forces that absence of a firearm from the Record of Sale database is not, in itself, grounds for confiscation of a firearm.

Many in law enforcement query a subject’s firearm against the ROS system and confiscate it if the subject’s name is not associated with the firearm. The confiscation of a firearm should never be solely based on a negative response to a firearm records query. The totality of circumstances to include your department’s policies should be taken into consideration when making a determination of whether confiscation is appropriate.

And as I indicated above, it's my impression that the search of your vehicle was illegal, even before we get to the question of the legality of the seizure of the firearms.

[tripleS]

If I were asked to get out of the car I would have pulled the keys and placed them in my pocket and locked the doors. I would have not given them consent to search my vehicle.

I would keep your registration and insurance cards at a more convenient location so that you don't have to open or reach far for anything. The sun visor is a good place or in a folder between the seat and console.

I would not have offered as much information as you did. If you would have had your registration out of the door pocket before he got to your car the question probably would have never came up.

Just my 2 cents.

Best of luck getting your property back without a good amount of money spent.

[JenniferG]

This is the exact reason why we have to get rid of the illegal registration list that Pennsylvania keeps on gun owners. Damn I get so fricken' mad about this registration shit. IT IS REGISTRATION!!!!

[forby]

Did you give permission for the search?

[Gun]

I don't understand why people are not able to get their registration and ins. card out of the glovebox before the officer even exits their vehicle.

My is kept in a zip-bag and easy to find, even if dark.