Sick of Open Carry Harassment by Cops? READ THIS!

[JustinM]

Open carry is retarded.

You might as well have a neon sign over you that advertises you're carrying a gun.

What's the point of carrying a gun for defense when it becomes ALMOST useless because the attacker will know you're carrying.

I also don't see the point of just open carrying and having to load and unload your gun every time you get in or out of the car. What's the point of having a gun with you that's not loaded?

There's a big mindset issue in this thread.

When you tell people to f*ck off when they ask you why you're open carrying, then you just did a few things: (1) You have shown people that are inquiring about you carrying a gun that you are an a**hole, and that tells them that the rest of us that carry guns are a**holes, (2) you might of just provoked a fight ("Well, you see officer, this guy asked me why I was carrying a gun, so I told him to fuck off. that's how it all started"). I find being polite when anyone asks me why I carry a gun (no, I don't go around showing my gun to everyone), which is mostly the sheep at work, I politely explain to them that it is my right to carry a firearm, and I have chosen to do so. No need to be ignorant.

I have a simple solution for "Sick of open carry harrassment".....DON'T. Conceal Carry instead...PERIOD...unless of course your ego will not allow this. So what's next AK vs AR?

Exactly. If you choose to open carry, and people hurt your feelings, then either man up and shrug it off, or just carry concealed and quit b1tching.

[Broomhandle]

Open carry is retarded.

You might as well have a neon sign over you that advertises you're carrying a gun.

I agree! It is unsafe and unwise. Advertizing that you have a gun makes you an ideal target for an attack and having the gun taken from you. Plus if you were my friend or relative I would steer clear of you - it is just to unsafe not to mention goofy looking. I encourage my friends and family to train for concealed carry, but open-carry makes no sense to me.

Don't take my word for it. Search all the reputable literature on the subject of personal protection for us peasentry, or talk to those that teach such skills, and you will see the same conclusion.

[josh]

Why would you want to open carry anyway?

I dont see the point! Someone could easily sneek up on u and take your firearm, a bad guy will see it, and there goes the element of surprise. A Permit in Pa is $25.00 and depending where you are in the state you can get one in less than 15 mins.

you can open carry in most of Pa. dont know why you would but you can.

but if you get in the car with it your breaking the law.

so just pay the 5 bucks a year (5 year 25 dollar permit) and conceal your weapon no one will know you have it and noone will say shit to you. Ive been in line at sheetz with a state trooper behind me....he didnt know i had a 9mm, now if i was open carrying im sure he would have be alittle suspect of me. Yes it legal to open carry but if i was a cop and i saw joe smoe with a gun on his hip i would want to know what the hell they were thinking, Prolly after i pulled him/her over for driving with a loaded firearm(without permit) which is a felony. If they had a permit i would tell them the dangers of open carry.

A few reasons you may not have thought of.

Some of us believe we have a right to keep and bear arms however we wish!
No gun laws are constitutional,reasonable or moral. So some of us refuse to beg permission from the govt,in the form of a permit, to carry a weapon.
Also some of us carry openly specificaly because it pisses off both civilians and cops, who believe they have the authority to regulate or stop our use of arms.
Also the crime deterrent factor is very real.

Yes it legal to open carry but if i was a cop and i saw joe smoe with a gun on his hip i would want to know what the hell they were thinking,

All the more reason tho educate the police on our constitutional rights.
It seems like you are buying into the hype that guns are dangerous and bad and anyone who has firearms that arent for sporting purposes is a criminal or a lunatic.

Prolly after i pulled him/her over for driving with a loaded firearm(without permit) which is a felony.

Please show me the specific text of either the constitution of the U.S. or of PA that gives government the regulate who can and cant carry firearms.

If they had a permit i would tell them the dangers of open carry.

That is not really any business of the police or anyone else. If the cops stop a smoker shoul;d they give them a speach about the dangers of smoking?

Open carry is retarded.

You might as well have a neon sign over you that advertises you're carrying a gun.

No need for the sign if the weapon is visible. Large neon signs are far to heavy and cumbersome to cary around.

What's the point of carrying a gun for defense when it becomes ALMOST useless because the attacker will know you're carrying.

Expalin how it becomes useless? Does it cease to function? Does it jump out of the holster and fly across tothe room to the criminal?

I also don't see the point of just open carrying and having to load and unload your gun every time you get in or out of the car.

So dont

What's the point of having a gun with you that's not loaded?

I agree 1000 percent. An unloaded firearm is useless and dangerous. As is the mental inability to use one if needed. You are far safer without a weapon than with an unloaded one or one you wont use.

There's a big mindset issue in this thread.

When you tell people to f*ck off when they ask you why you're open carrying, then you just did a few things: (1) You have shown people that are inquiring about you carrying a gun that you are an a**hole, and that tells them that the rest of us that carry guns are a**holes, (2) you might of just provoked a fight ("Well, you see officer, this guy asked me why I was carrying a gun, so I told him to fuck off. that's how it all started"). I find being polite when anyone asks me why I carry a gun (no, I don't go around showing my gun to everyone), which is mostly the sheep at work, I politely explain to them that it is my right to carry a firearm, and I have chosen to do so. No need to be ignorant.

Agreed. The only people I would be so rude to would be those who should know better such as harassing police. I have carried openly for years. I can say the only people who ask were genuinelyy interested and a polite answer was more persuasive than being rude. those who disprove dont usually say anything to me. But Im in a very rural area.
I have had a "discussion"with a local police officer who threatened me with everything he could think of. When i refused to submit to hiss bullying he got mad and stormed away mumbling because he knew he had no legal basis for his harassment.

Exactly. If you choose to open carry, and people hurt your feelings, then either man up and shrug it off, or just carry concealed and quit b1tching.

I dont think the issue of this thread is with other people disagreeing with open carry. It is more about the unwarranted,illegal and immoral harrasment by law enforcement.

I have a simple solution for "Sick of open carry harrassment".....DON'T. Conceal Carry instead...PERIOD...unless of course your ego will not allow this. So what's next AK vs AR?

So you are saying do not excersize our rights unless we are prepared for the police to harrass us.
You statist are a strange bunch.

[Gray Peterson]

look stop tryin to cut me down

Then stop giving bad advice. There are several legal errors that you're telling people that is not completely true. If they follow your advice and just put their unloaded gun in a case and put it in the trunk just to carry around willy nilly, they'll get popped for a felony charge. See below.

if you dont have a ccw you CANNOT open carry in PHILLY

Let's get one thing straight: Pennsylvania's license is a LICENSE TO CARRY FIREARMS. It is not called a CCW. It is an LTCF.

If you dont have a ccw you CANNOT have bullets in a mag near the firearm in the car

As far as the exception in subsection (8) goes, there is no definition of unloaded. Unless the courts have a different definition, unloaded means there is no ammunition in chamber, in cylindar, or loaded magazine that is inside of a semi-auto.

(the cartridges or shells are carried in a separate container and the rifle, pistol or revolver is unloaded. Title 18 § 6106) if you carry your pistol unloaded and locked in the trunk, with the ammunition in a different container than the pistol, you will be legal. if not its a felony

What you're stating and what the law states are two completely different things. You left out several important caveats to that law. Here is the law that you're talking about:

(8) Any person while carrying a firearm
which is not loaded and is in a secure wrapper from the place
of purchase to his home or place of business, or to a place
of repair, sale or appraisal or back to his home or place of
business, or in moving from one place of abode or business to
another or from his home to a vacation or recreational home
or dwelling or back, or to recover stolen property under
section 6111.1(b)(4) (relating to Pennsylvania State Police),
or to a place of instruction intended to teach the safe
handling, use or maintenance of firearms or back or to a
location to which the person has been directed to
relinquish firearms under 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108 (relating to
relief) or back upon return of the
relinquished firearm or to a licensed dealer's place of
business for relinquishment pursuant to 23 Pa.C.S § 6108.2
(relating to relinquishment for consignment sale, lawful
transfer or safekeeping) or back upon return of the
relinquished firearm or to a location for safekeeping
pursuant to 23 Pa.C.S. § 6108.3 (relating to relinquishment
to third party for safekeeping) or back upon return of the
relinquished firearm.

As you can see, just having a handgun in your trunk unloaded or in a secure wrapper isn't enough in Pennsylvania. You must have those reasons, or going to those places, to be afforded the exception. If you are just having a handgun in your car, even unloaded and in your trunk, it is still a felony, unless you have a license to carry from any state (under subsection (11))

some LEOS dont care if you open carry...some do...don’t look surprised if you are taken down at gunpoint. It’s for officer safety thing.

Actually, they DON'T have the right to take you down at gunpoint. Quoting from the Pennsylvania Supreme Court in Commonwealth v. Hawkins:

The Commonwealth takes the radical position that police have a duty to
stop and frisk when they receive information from any source that a suspect has
a gun. Since it is not illegal to carry a licensed gun in Pennsylvania, it is
difficult to see where this shocking idea originates, notwithstanding the
Commonwealth's fanciful and histrionic references to maniacs who may spray
schoolyards with gunfire and assassins of public figures who may otherwise go
undetected. Even if the Constitution of Pennsylvania would permit such
invasive police activity as the Commonwealth proposes -- which it does not --
such activity seems more likely to endanger than to protect the public.
Unnecessary police intervention, by definition, produces the possibility of
conflict where none need exist.

Anyway, this is dealing with Terry Stops. Felony stops are an even higher level of requirement for criminal activity. As it is not illegal to carry a firearm openly in all circumstances (like it is in New York outside of your home), pointing guns at a lawful open carrier violates Article 1, Section 8 of the Pennsylvania State Constitution, as defined by the Hawkins court.

when officers are off duty, they don’t carry in the open.

That's a rather huge leap to be making, saying that all law enforcement, everywhere, never carry openly off duty. I suppose if I ask around and find a few examples of law enforcement officers who carry off duty, you'll turn around and admit that you're wrong?

I also don't see the point of just open carrying and having to load and unload your gun every time you get in or out of the car. What's the point of having a gun with you that's not loaded?

There's a big mindset issue in this thread.

When you tell people to f*ck off when they ask you why you're open carrying, then you just did a few things: (1) You have shown people that are inquiring about you carrying a gun that you are an a**hole, and that tells them that the rest of us that carry guns are a**holes, (2) you might of just provoked a fight ("Well, you see officer, this guy asked me why I was carrying a gun, so I told him to fuck off. that's how it all started"). I find being polite when anyone asks me why I carry a gun (no, I don't go around showing my gun to everyone), which is mostly the sheep at work, I politely explain to them that it is my right to carry a firearm, and I have chosen to do so. No need to be ignorant.

Exactly. If you choose to open carry, and people hurt your feelings, then either man up and shrug it off, or just carry concealed and quit b1tching.

jmateer and others saying that open carry is "retarded" and unwise"

I believe you just used the quick reply and didn't read the rest of the thread. If you read my posting in the second page, you'll see that I in fact encourage people to get LTCF's so they can carry loaded in their cars, carry in emergencies, and carry in cities of first class.

I am hoping jmateer, that you're responding to Dr. Glock's $@#%^ off posting if they don't like it and not to me in particular. As I live in Washington State, and basically started open carrying in urban areas, there have been quite a few people that have "asked the question".

As an open carrier, I view myself as an ambassador for open carry. I explain the laws in Washington (that you need a CPL to carry loaded in your car, etc) whens someone asks, I show them the Federal Way bulletin, and when they ask "well isn't that disorderly conduct/warrant alarm", I explain to them that that is not the case.

Most people honestly don't care. My posting and bulletin addresses interactions with law enforcement officers in their official capacity only. Unlike private citizens who are not under such professional standards to treat you in a certain way, law enforcement officers are required to.

I agree! It is unsafe and unwise. Advertising that you have a gun makes you an ideal target for an attack and having the gun taken from you.

Even if that were true (which is not the case) If that's the case, then law enforcement officers carrying concealed should be a requirement too. Then again, law enforcement officers are required to go directly into dangerous situations and apprehend criminals that don't want to be taken, so they may be tempted to take the cop's gun and shoot them in the heat of the moment. Civilians don't have that problem, as they are not required to go anywhere they're called.

I've heard of lot's of LEO's have their guns taken from them, but from civilians I've only heard of TWO incidents in the last 10 years (One in Phoenix about 6 years ago, and one in Lynchburg, VA last year). That's a pretty damned good record considering. Reason for both of those grabs: Lack of situational awareness.

[tes151]

Why would you want to open carry anyway?

I dont see the point! Someone could easily sneek up on u and take your firearm, a bad guy will see it, and there goes the element of surprise. A Permit in Pa is $25.00 and depending where you are in the state you can get one in less than 15 mins.

you can open carry in most of Pa. dont know why you would but you can.

but if you get in the car with it your breaking the law.

so just pay the 5 bucks a year (5 year 25 dollar permit) and conceal your weapon no one will know you have it and noone will say shit to you. Ive been in line at sheetz with a state trooper behind me....he didnt know i had a 9mm, now if i was open carrying im sure he would have be alittle suspect of me. Yes it legal to open carry but if i was a cop and i saw joe smoe with a gun on his hip i would want to know what the hell they were thinking, Prolly after i pulled him/her over for driving with a loaded firearm(without permit) which is a felony. If they had a permit i would tell them the dangers of open carry.

I have a CCW permit, but if I want to open carry that is my right. The way you state that it is a given that any LEO that sees you open carrying will harass you sounds like you have given up on your rights. The way I see it, if any LEO arrests me for doing something legal he will soon wish he hadn't. Nobody will infringe on my constitutional rights without a legal beating being administered. If everyone thought this way these LEO/lawyer wannabes would learn the law and act accordingly.

[rad]

I find it sad that we're having a flame war over whether or not to open carry in PA.

If you don't agree with open carry, and don't care to do so yourself, that's fine by me but please have the courtesy to stay out of the way of those who wish to defend and exercise what is a legal activity in this state. I'm sorry if that offends, but from the load of anti-gun legislative crap that is currently sitting in the PA House Judiciary Committee the last thing we need is to be giving up ground on what we currently can legally do.

Besides, regardless of whether or not you think it's a good idea to open carry on a daily basis, don't fight against your pro-gun brethern on this issue. You never really know when YOU might actually need to carry openly, and if that day comes you'll probably be really glad that it's legal. You'll probably be even gladder that someone else took the time to help educate law enforcement on the topic so you don't get harassed for it too.

[whoshisface]

look stop tryin to cut me down

if you dont have a ccw you CANNOT open carry in PHILLY

If you dont have a ccw you CANNOT have bullets in a mag near the firearm in the car

(the cartridges or shells are carried in a separate container and the rifle, pistol or revolver is unloaded. Title 18 § 6106) if you carry your pistol unloaded and locked in the trunk, with the ammunition in a different container than the pistol, you will be legal. if not its a felony

some LEOS dont care if you open carry...some do...don’t look surprised if you are taken down at gunpoint. It’s for officer safety thing.

when officers are off duty, they don’t carry in the open.

It is not an officer safety thing, it is an officer stupidity thing. It is legal to open carry and rather or not I have a gun concealed or open doesn't change the fact that I have a gun! There is no safety issue at all here, just a power trip.

[whoshisface]

http://www.pafoa.org/forum/general-2...sheet-leo.html

A link to a sheet containing the laws that I've found. I carry this sheet in my walet and I have full copies of the law and the court rullings in both my cars at all times.

[ChamberedRound]

I find it sad that we're having a flame war over whether or not to open carry in PA.

If you don't agree with open carry, and don't care to do so yourself, that's fine by me but please have the courtesy to stay out of the way of those who wish to defend and exercise what is a legal activity in this state. I'm sorry if that offends, but from the load of anti-gun legislative crap that is currently sitting in the PA House Judiciary Committee the last thing we need is to be giving up ground on what we currently can legally do.

Besides, regardless of whether or not you think it's a good idea to open carry on a daily basis, don't fight against your pro-gun brethern on this issue. You never really know when YOU might actually need to carry openly, and if that day comes you'll probably be really glad that it's legal. You'll probably be even gladder that someone else took the time to help educate law enforcement on the topic so you don't get harassed for it too.

Welcome to the site Rad (I see you're a relatively new poster), and a BIG +1 on your comments. With the "storm on the horizon" in Harrisburg right now, we should be focusing our energies there, not over the open carry issue. To the rest here, this thread is another (there are others) open carry discussion. Realize a few things:

Open carry is perfectly legal. Deal with it.
Some people open carry. Deal with it.
Some people feel it's worth the potential harassment. Deal with it.
Some people open carry and DON'T get harassed, what a shock! Deal with it.
Some people open carry, don't get harassed, and actually educate someone about firearms rights, ownership, and carry. Deal with it.

I don't necessarily agree with all the points of discussion, nor do I necessarily have the cojones to open carry. But I respect those that do, realize that they have a bravery and patriotism that I do not, and hope one day to have the courage to "make the step" and stand up for my rights.

[rwilson452]

Welcome to the site Rad (I see you're a relatively new poster), and a BIG +1 on your comments. With the "storm on the horizon" in Harrisburg right now, we should be focusing our energies there, not over the open carry issue. To the rest here, this thread is another (there are others) open carry discussion. Realize a few things:

Open carry is perfectly legal. Deal with it.
Some people open carry. Deal with it.
Some people feel it's worth the potential harassment. Deal with it.
Some people open carry and DON'T get harassed, what a shock! Deal with it.
Some people open carry, don't get harassed, and actually educate someone about firearms rights, ownership, and carry. Deal with it.

I don't necessarily agree with all the points of discussion, nor do I necessarily have the cojones to open carry. But I respect those that do, realize that they have a bravery and patriotism that I do not, and hope one day to have the courage to "make the step" and stand up for my rights.

One last point and I'm done.
The point I was trying to make is if we have the right to open carry and allow the powers that be to intimidate us into not doing it. We lose the right in a defacto manner and they win. On the other hand if we stuff it up their nose a few times we retain that right in a real manner. If you fear if some open carry and make an issue of it they will legislate it away. You conceed the fight before the battle is joined. To put it another way if you fear to excersize a right, you don't have that right.