Luzerne Co. LTCF question...?

[Kelt]

Okay, so I have to get my LTCF. A while back, I bought a very nice 38 S&W Airweight snubbie. Like the revolver, and figured it's time to get my license.
I noticed from browsing around the forums, that some sheriffs have different forms than other sheriffs, but I THOUGHT that this was a shall-issue state??
What I mean is - in Luzerne County (I live in Wilkes-Barre), you have to list two references, non-family. Some other counties, you don't have to do this. WHY is one sheriff able to just add something arbitrarily?
I just don't see why somebody in another county is judged, by the legal authority there, as being okay with a LTCF, but HERE, a citizen of the same state, isn't, without those two names..??
Isn't this something discriminatory? My problem is: I work all kinds of different shifts at two separate hospitals. I have a wife and a young daughter at home. The 'hood around me is always experiencing break-ins and of course along with jewelry and other typical items stolen, guns are a big draw for the section-8-lifers when they have already drunk away their check at the end of the week.... SO, I really don't like letting anybody, other than my wife, know that I have a firearm here.
I keep to myself mostly, and the majority of my friends, even from my fencing club, are not exactly gun types. A few of my buds think signing it can get them in trouble if something ever happens... geez.
Who did you guys ask to sign the damn thing?

[gnbrotz]

The LTCF application is provided by the PSP and should be uniform around the state, though some Sheriff's due attempt to add their own provisions to the process.

However, providing two non-family references is a standard requirement and NOT unique to your county.

[granuale]

FYI your references won't have to sign anything at all. You will have to sign the application, and list the contact information for your references.

I see the form used by Luzerne county is available here. It does say no family members, but does not mandate that they live in Luzerne county. So, you have to know 2 adults anywhere who will be a reference for you. They will most likely get a phone call from the Sheriff's office to ask if you are or likely to be a danger to yourself or others with a gun.

As far as different Sheriffs doing things differently and in violation of the UFA - well you're preachin' to the choir. What we need is the Attorney General to start holding these sheriff's feet to the fire. In leiu of that we need people like you and me to sue them for failing to uphold the UFA. That takes money and balls.

[JCWohlschlag]

I believe the reason that different counties and Philadelphia are getting away with adding additional requirements is because of a statement included in 18 Pa.C.S. § 6109 (c):

(c) Form of application and content.--The application for a license to carry a firearm shall be uniform throughout this Commonwealth and shall be on a form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police. The form may contain provisions, not exceeding one page, to assure compliance with this section. Issuing authorities shall use only the application form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police. One of the following reasons for obtaining a firearm license shall be set forth in the application: self-defense, employment, hunting and fishing, target shooting, gun collecting or another proper reason. The application form shall be dated and signed by the applicant and shall contain the following statement:

I have never been convicted of a crime that prohibits me from possessing or acquiring a firearm under Federal or State law. I am of sound mind and have never been committed to a mental institution. I hereby certify that the statements contained herein are true and correct to the best of my knowledge and belief. I understand that, if I knowingly make any false statements herein, I am subject to penalties prescribed by law. I authorize the sheriff, or his designee, or, in the case of first class cities, the chief or head of the police department, or his designee, to inspect only those records or documents relevant to information required for this application. If I am issued a license and knowingly become ineligible to legally possess or acquire firearms, I will promptly notify the sheriff of the county in which I reside or, if I reside in a city of the first class, the chief of police of that city.

It appears that the “issuing authorities” are having a good time with their “additional single pages of provisions”. Hey, if you make the font small enough, you could include all the provisions you want! It seems to be fine as long as the actual application form is not modified. (Note, the actual form for Luzerne County is modified on block 29.)

As you probably already noticed from the Luzerne County LTCF Application, “Provision” #9 specifically state, “BLOCK #29 TWO REFERENCES MUST PERSONALLY SIGN YOUR APPLICATION.” They currently seem to be able to get away with making your references personally sign your application by refusing to accept the application for processing if they do not, which gets around the problem of only being able to deny a submitted application for specific reasons. Hell, apparently they will refuse to accept the application for processing even if the references’ personal signatures are too pretty, which you can read about in this thread.

Myself, I mail the darned application to two of my best friends, one of whom is in upstate New York and the other in Southern California, so they can personally sign the application in the appropriate spots. It is kind of a pain in the butt, but it works. Hopefully this crap will get straightened out sometime soon.

[granuale]

Well clearly I didn't read the whole thing before I posted. It sucks that Sheriff Michael A. Savokinas is a piece of shit who thinks he is above the law. I am trying to set up a model complaint which would make it easier for you to sue the sheriff and make him obey the law. Hopefully this will be worked out soon, but if not and you decide to sue let me be the first to offer a donation of $50 toward your legal fees.

[Steve in PA]

Don't be so quick to dump on the new sheriff. The LTC process is the same that has been used for many years.

The old sheriff would NOT sign off on NFA stuff, while the new sheriff will.

[tacticalreload]

...Sheriff Michael A. Savokinas is a piece of shit...

Trying to sweet talk him, I see.

[Statkowski]

Letter sent to PSP Firearms Division as follows:

Tuesday, July 29, 2008

Commonwealth of Pennsylvania
PennsylvaniaState Police
Attn: Firearms Division
1800 Elmerton Avenue
Harrisburg, PA17110



Dear Sirs:

Attached is the current LTCF application required by Luzerne County Sheriff Michael Savokinas.

As you are aware, 18 Pa.C.S. § 6109 (c) states, in part:

• The application for a license to carry a firearm shall be uniform throughout this Commonwealth and shall be on a form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police.
• The form may contain provisions, not exceeding one page, to assure compliance with this section.
• Issuing authorities shall use only the application form prescribed by the Pennsylvania State Police.

Your attention is invited to both Item 9 on his cover letter and Block 29 on his SP 4-127 form.

Sheriff Savokinas’ requirement for references’ signatures is not required on LTCF applications elsewhere within the Commonwealth.

Since the application process is therefore not uniform throughout this Commonwealth, is not Sheriff Savokinas’ application process in violation of Section 6109(c)?

Since Sheriff Savokinas has modified the SP 4-127 form, has this modification been approved by the prescribing authority?

A response would be appreciated with either:

• What actions your office is taking in this matter, or
• A recommended course of action by an applicant.

Sincerely,

[Kelt]

Thanks for all the input here, I appreciate it.
I do realize that the "new" sheriff might just be carrying on with the same old form, but I didn't know for sure.
Problem is, I noticed that the thugs strutting around my area are definitely getting into trouble, so I figured I should think about investing in the next step up as far as "self help."
What amazes me is this: two Sec. 8 houses in my 'hood, one finally closed. The other had been rented out (w/o being inspected, but the city doesn't care when you directly tell them such things)... two men from Chester, or somewhere nearby from what I heard from them inbetween curses and such during their nightly parties/fights.... but these homies are routinely pulled out of these houses on warrants, violations, etc., and then more just flood in and hang out there. NOT such a good way to run an area that still has tax-payers in it!
Now, am I steamed that we have to go through SOOOO much, justifying our God-given right to protect us? Nah, not all that much. What really bakes my muffin is that little part of the application. WHY would he need two signatures? Trust me, coming from a family that's not very gun-friendly, all that does is make it harder for decent people to do what they have the right to do...
So, Jasper living two houses away from me is out front showing off how his "piece" sits nice and low (this actually happened a couple years back)... wanna guess how easy it was for him to get his firearm? What two fine people signed for his LTCF?!

[Philbert]

The reference thing is a real pain for people who don't have pro-gun or long term acquaintances within the same county. If the sheriff is not restricting you to county residents or asking ridiculous questions like "if it were up to you, would you grant X a license?" then you are doing better than some of us.