Question About FOPA/Air Travel

**jthrelf** · August 17th, 2015, 08:27 PM

Yes, I know. Screw Jersey. I have to be insane for asking, etc. Please do not leave leave solely those types of replies. I get it and I likely won't be doing this but I'd like to know what's legal (and not just what's realistic/practical/safe).

With that said, is airline travel with a handgun from PA to a reciprocal state through a flight out of Newark, NJ covered under FOPA? I.e. direct travel from PA to the airport on the way to a friendly state with a handgun in a locked case. I understand mags and hollow points aren't protected by FOPA so they are under NJ's wrath.

By the wording of the law, I believe it is because:

1) the travel is directly through the state in question (NJ) - from a legal state (PA) to another legal state.
2) everything remains locked&unloaded (needs to be for air travel anyway).

18 USC §926A - Interstate transportation of firearms
Notwithstanding any other provision of any law or any rule or regulation of a State or any political subdivision thereof, any person who is not otherwise prohibited by this chapter from transporting, shipping, or receiving a firearm shall be entitled to transport a firearm for any lawful purpose from any place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm to any other place where he may lawfully possess and carry such firearm if, during such transportation the firearm is unloaded, and neither the firearm nor any ammunition being transported is readily accessible or is directly accessible from the passenger compartment of such transporting vehicle: Provided, That in the case of a vehicle without a compartment separate from the driver’s compartment the firearm or ammunition shall be contained in a locked container other than the glove compartment or console.

Of course on the return you'd have to proceed directly back into PA as well.

Thoughts? Contributions to my legal fund?

**tl_3237** · August 17th, 2015, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by jthrelf

Yes, I know. Screw Jersey. I have to be insane for asking, etc. Please do not leave leave solely those types of replies. I get it and I likely won't be doing this but I'd like to know what's legal (and not just what's realistic/practical/safe).

With that said, is airline travel with a handgun from PA to a reciprocal state through a flight out of Newark, NJ covered under FOPA? I.e. direct travel from PA to the airport on the way to a friendly state with a handgun in a locked case. I understand mags and hollow points aren't protected by FOPA so they are under NJ's wrath.

By the wording of the law, I believe it is because:

1) the travel is directly through the state in question (NJ) - from a legal state (PA) to another legal state.
2) everything remains locked&unloaded (needs to be for air travel anyway).

Of course on the return you'd have to proceed directly back into PA as well.

Thoughts? Contributions to my legal fund?

see post #7 for a correction

Yes provided the firearm remains in the physical custody of the carrier during the transit between end-points. Should an untoward circumstance occur (ex: unscheduled stoppage) whereupon you become stranded in an unfriendly state - DO NOT retrieve your luggage containing the firearm from the airline's custody. I am also assuming that you meet all the other pre-requisites for FOPA transport.

**Sgt.K** · August 17th, 2015, 11:14 PM

Originally Posted by tl_3237

Yes provided the firearm remains in the physical custody of the carrier during the transit between end-points. Should an untoward circumstance occur (ex: unscheduled stoppage) whereupon you become stranded in an unfriendly state - DO NOT retrieve your luggage containing the firearm from the airline's custody. I am also assuming that you meet all the other pre-requisites for FOPA transport.

Unfortunately, you need to *walk* from your car to the ticket counter. While you are walking, in possession of your luggage containing your firearm, you are not 'travelling' - according to the 3rd circuit, if memory serves (search the forum for "FOPA", "Jersey" and "airport" - I *could* be wrong, but...). This means that when you step out of your car your journey has ended, in a place where you are not legal, so you have not been covered by FOPA. At. All.

If you absolutely MUST change planes in NJ/NY do as tl said and DO NOT take possession of your luggage during the layover.

If I am wrong about this, I will gladly come back and edit this response, but I'm not holding out hope.

IANAL
YMMV
My 2¢
etc...

**wanneroo** · August 17th, 2015, 11:49 PM

Originally Posted by Sgt.K

Unfortunately, you need to *walk* from your car to the ticket counter. While you are walking, in possession of your luggage containing your firearm, you are not 'travelling' - according to the 3rd circuit, if memory serves (search the forum for "FOPA", "Jersey" and "airport" - I *could* be wrong, but...). This means that when you step out of your car your journey has ended, in a place where you are not legal, so you have not been covered by FOPA. At. All.

If you absolutely MUST change planes in NJ/NY do as tl said and DO NOT take possession of your luggage during the layover.

If I am wrong about this, I will gladly come back and edit this response, but I'm not holding out hope.

IANAL
YMMV
My 2¢
etc...

I ended up doing research on this as I have to fly out of Elmira, NY a lot. From what I was able to gather, NY for instance does not respect FOPA at all. If you drive into NY, walk to the terminal, check your gun in with your checked luggage, without a NY permit you will be arrested on the spot and thrown in jail. You will be charged under their laws, but you can use FOPA as a defense, whether or not that would be a successful defense, well I'm not keen to find out. Apparently there is a carve out under NY laws that if I am going to a match and can validate that, then it would prevent me from being arrested but again do I want to find out, not really.

I would expect the same in NJ. You will be arrested and charged, just as others have found out bringing in handguns to NJ and while facing 5 years in prison you can use FOPA as a defense at your trial. Or maybe Krispy Kreme Christy will pardon you. Or maybe not.

This is why we have to continue to help our friends in NY and NJ fight this BS in their state and not abandon them to the wolves.

**jthrelf** · August 18th, 2015, 07:49 AM

Originally Posted by Sgt.K

Unfortunately, you need to *walk* from your car to the ticket counter. While you are walking, in possession of your luggage containing your firearm, you are not 'travelling' - according to the 3rd circuit, if memory serves (search the forum for "FOPA", "Jersey" and "airport" - I *could* be wrong, but...). This means that when you step out of your car your journey has ended, in a place where you are not legal, so you have not been covered by FOPA. At. All.

If you absolutely MUST change planes in NJ/NY do as tl said and DO NOT take possession of your luggage during the layover.

If I am wrong about this, I will gladly come back and edit this response, but I'm not holding out hope.

IANAL
YMMV
My 2¢
etc...

That's interesting, considering you're still traveling - just changing vehicles. I'll try to look up that 3rd circuit case.

Originally Posted by wanneroo

I ended up doing research on this as I have to fly out of Elmira, NY a lot. From what I was able to gather, NY for instance does not respect FOPA at all. If you drive into NY, walk to the terminal, check your gun in with your checked luggage, without a NY permit you will be arrested on the spot and thrown in jail. You will be charged under their laws, but you can use FOPA as a defense, whether or not that would be a successful defense, well I'm not keen to find out. Apparently there is a carve out under NY laws that if I am going to a match and can validate that, then it would prevent me from being arrested but again do I want to find out, not really.

I would expect the same in NJ. You will be arrested and charged, just as others have found out bringing in handguns to NJ and while facing 5 years in prison you can use FOPA as a defense at your trial. Or maybe Krispy Kreme Christy will pardon you. Or maybe not.

This is why we have to continue to help our friends in NY and NJ fight this BS in their state and not abandon them to the wolves.

I've always wondered this too. I imagine a scenario like "hey I have a firearm to declare", Newark PD gets called over and they say "LOL nice try". Which I find funny considering Newark has all the "must declare firearms" signs at the ticketing counters. Hell maybe I'll try giving Newark PD a call...

**ungawa** · August 18th, 2015, 08:40 AM

Sgt.K is correct. Third Circuit has ruled FOPA does not protect you on foot, and specifically while walking from a vehicle to the ticket counter.

You are NOT covered by FOPA doing this in Jersey.

**tl_3237** · August 18th, 2015, 08:53 AM

You all are correct regarding the 3rd circuit. I misread the question and missed where he was originating in NJ - I had mistakenly assumed he was flying from Pa with a connecting flight in NJ.

If he originates or terminates in NJ then he would not garner FOPA protection.

In light of the plain meaning of the statute, fully corroborated by the legislative history, we hold that section 926A benefits only those who wish to transport firearms in vehicles — and not, therefore, any of the kinds of "transportation" that, by necessity, would be involved should a person like those represented by the Association wish to transport a firearm by foot through an airport terminal or Port Authority site.

730 F.3d 252 (2013)

ASSOCIATION OF NEW JERSEY RIFLE AND PISTOL CLUBS INC., Appellant,
v.
PORT AUTHORITY OF NEW YORK AND NEW JERSEY, and Scott Erickson.

No. 12-3621.

United States Court of Appeals, Third Circuit.

Argued and Submitted May 31, 2013.

Filed: September 13, 2013.

**jthrelf** · August 18th, 2015, 01:29 PM

Thanks for pointing that out, Sgt. K (and others) and thanks for the correction, tl. You guys are always most helpful.

So my scenario of checking firearms at EWR is correct... declare your firearms, get arrested (unless you have the elusive NJ Carry Permit). Wankers.

I guess I'll look to fly out of PHL for sure...

**ungawa** · August 18th, 2015, 02:57 PM

We got your back, TL. Even a walking encyclopedia can't catch everything

**Gman106** · August 18th, 2015, 04:16 PM

He left the airport with the weapon in his luggage to stay at a nearby hotel. He returned to the airport the next day, advised he had his weapon and was arrested. It should be noted however, that the actual criminal charges for violation of Title 18 USC 926A, Interstate Transfer of Firearms, were dismissed. The 3rd Circuit effectively punted and SCOTUS declined to hear the civil case the victim brought against the Port Authority for unlawful imprisonment, ill-treatment or whatever he filed. Just because his charges were dismissed, I still don't think the issue is in anyway settled as to whether for sure one is covered under FOPA as "traveling" when in possession within the confines of an airport or especially upon leaving the airport as this guy did.

"We recognize that he had been placed in a difficult situation through no fault of his own," wrote Judge Kent A. Jordan of the U.S. 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals in Philadelphia. However, the law "clearly requires the traveler to part ways with his weapon and ammunition during travel; it does not address this type of interrupted journey or what the traveler is to do in this situation."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...supreme-court/

NRA Radio interviewed the Jersey lawyer who represented him in the criminal case. He rattles off a few more interesting cases in PRNJ where gun owners were arrested for following the letter of the law...