Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #1
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    Default Need some advice for a friend of our family about a dog issue

    Gang,

    Need a favor here on thoughts and possible direction to seek advice on somethings. My brother in law's wife's, sister had some new neighbors that moved in next to them. The new neighbors have two pit bulls. One is people aggressive and the other one is animal aggressive. They've had conversations with the new neighbors about the dogs and they've admitted that they are both very aggressive and are hard to control. She was taking her dog for a walk and the one pit bull was fighting to get out of the house to go after them.

    The neighbors built a post and rail fence with chicken wire however dogs can get under that, especially two charging pit bulls.

    The concerned couple worried about these dogs charging onto their property are both LTCF holders. However they called the local Dog Warden and in speaking mentioned that they would defend their loved ones if the dogs came onto their property to attack. The dog warden said it's illegal to do so, you can not discharge a firearm. She called the local police and stated the same thing, they also said it's illegal to do so?

    Now I understand that if a dogs enters your property you just can't fire at it. However I would think that if an aggressive dog or two of them are charging your property going after your dog, loved ones or such, you could defend the threat. I mean what if this was a bear? The police and warden are saying that you can get attacked but can't defend. In other word u need to wait until the attack takes place? Even on your own property?

    I don't condone any thoughts of ever having to use just force on any domestic animal but anyone have any thoughts around this? I suggested she contact the Sheriff and discuss this and what she was told by the warden and local police.

    Pretty much what their saying is, if a guy is trying to stab you, rob you, harm you in public you can use just force. But if an animal is charging your property in an aggressive manner to harm you need to let it harm and call the police? Does that make sense? It doesn't to me.

    Again any suggestions on laws or similar experience is appreciated. Not trying to start a pit bull rant or such. I love all dogs and feel dogs can be a product of their owners. I don't blame the breed or breeds. I Blame the careless immature owners for most aggressive dog's behaviors.

    Again I could be wrong here but am curious on others experience or same situations.
    Thanks
    Spankey.
    Last edited by spankey; June 1st, 2015 at 09:29 PM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Need some advice for a friend of our family about a dog issue

    I believe you can use force to defend yourself against attacking dogs. There are quite a few threads on here about that topic. http://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=183654

    Even "IF" it were illegal to shoot an attacking dog, wouldn't you prefer to take your chances in court than have your loved one mauled by one???
    When you are called a racist, it just means you won an argument with an Obama supporter.

  3. #3
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    Default Re: Need some advice for a friend of our family about a dog issue

    Quote Originally Posted by spankey View Post
    Gang,

    Need a favor here on thoughts and possible direction to seek advice on somethings. My brother in law's wife's, sister had some new neighbors that moved in next to them. The new neighbors have two pit bulls. One is people aggressive and the other one is animal aggressive. They've had conversations with the new neighbors about the dogs and they've admitted that they are both very aggressive and are hard to control. She was taking her dog for a walk and the one pit bull was fighting to get out of the house to go after them.

    The neighbors built a post and rail fence with chicken wire however dogs can get under that, especially two charging pit bulls.

    The concerned couple worried about these dogs charging onto their property are both LTCF holders. However they called the local Dog Warden and in speaking mentioned that they would defend their loved ones if the dogs came onto their property to attack. The dog warden said it's illegal to do so, you can not discharge a firearm. She called the local police and stated the same thing, they also said it's illegal to do so?

    Now I understand that if a dogs enters your property you just can't fire at it. However I would think that if an aggressive dog or two of them are charging your property going after your dog, loved ones or such, you could defend the threat. I mean what if this was a bear? The police and warden are saying that you can get attacked but can't defend. Even on your own property?

    I don't condone any thoughts of ever having to use just force on any domestic animal but anyone have any thoughts around this? I suggested she contact the Sheriff and discuss this and what she was told by the warden and local police.

    Pretty much what their saying is, if a guy is trying to stab you, rob you, harm you in public you can use just force. But if an animal is charging your property in an aggressive manner to harm you need to let it harm and call the police? Does that make sense? It doesn't to me.

    Again any suggestions on laws or similar experience is appreciated. Not trying to start a pit bull rant or such. I love all dogs and feel dogs can be a product of their owners. I don't blame the breed or breeds. I Blame the careless immature owners for most aggressive dog's behaviors.

    Thanks
    Spankey.
    The doctrine of "necessity" (or "justification") supersedes every law, even the laws against murder (you may kill an attacker to prevent unjustified threats to your life, rape, kidnapping, or maiming). An ordinance against discharging firearms within town limits is nothing when compared to the need to avoid an attack on a human being by a dog. You can even kill an attacking dog to protect your own livestock. The local ordinance doesn't need to list an explicit exception, that's an overriding principle of our legal system, and it's laid out in the Commonwealth's criminal code (Chapter 5).

    If it were me, I'd send certified letters to the pitbull owners, and copy the local PD and animal control. Mention the aggression and the obvious risk of severe bodily injury. People are more responsible for the violence of their pets, if they had prior notice of the danger.

    People with very aggressive pitbulls usually LIKE having very aggressive pitbulls, and they often have encouraged the craziness. Same for aggressive dogs of any breed, but the pitties are trendy now in some communities.

    I've dog-sat for a pair of very sweet pitbulls. They are quite trainable and controllable, if the owner wants them to be controlled. They can be raised to be monsters, too.
    Attorney Phil Kline, AKA gunlawyer001@gmail.com
    Ce sac n'est pas un jouet.

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Need some advice for a friend of our family about a dog issue

    Thanks for the time all. Great advice! I have three boxers and know friends with pits and they're all very loving animals.

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Need some advice for a friend of our family about a dog issue

    The certified letters sound like a good idea, especially if you address the inadequate fence. Then they can't pretend that they had no idea how the dogs got out if you have to shoot them.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Need some advice for a friend of our family about a dog issue

    You have to love people that know they have uncontrollable very aggressive dogs yet do nothing about it. I guess they don't have children or care about anyone else in the neighborhood. My sister in laws pit pull almost took my daughters eye out for 0 reason at all, my daughter walked past the dog while it was laying on the couch with my sister in law and it took a bite at her face. If the wound wasn't linear my daughter would be wearing an eye patch to her prom.

    I have always had giant breed dogs from Police quality German Shepard's to Cane Corso's all capable of ripping most people apart. When I purchased my 1st home and found out we were having a baby I hired the best in home dog trainer I could find and had him train me on how to train dogs. It was the best $2k I ever spent since the knowledge will be with me for a lifetime of owning dogs, as well as knowing that my family and others around me will be safe.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Need some advice for a friend of our family about a dog issue

    As GL stated, yeah, aggressive dog is ok to shoot. You are going to have an easier time, much easier, for shooting an attacking dog than you will a bear in Pa.

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Need some advice for a friend of our family about a dog issue

    Dangerous dog, threatening or attacking people or animals? Shoot it. Send you local police and game warden a copy of what State Law says:

    34 Pa. C.S. § 459-501. Killing dogs; dogs as nuisances
    (a) Legal to kill certain dogs.--Any person may kill any dog which he sees in the act of pursuing or wounding or killing any domestic animal, wounding or killing other dogs, cats or household pets, or pursuing, wounding or attacking human beings, whether or not such a dog bears the license tag required by the provisions of this act. There shall be no liability on such persons in damages or otherwise for such killing.

    (b) Private nuisance.--Any dog that enters any field or enclosure where domestic animals are confined, provided that the enclosure is adequate for the purpose intended, shall constitute a private nuisance, and the owner or tenant of such field, or their agent or servant, may detain such dog and turn it over to the local police authority or State dog warden or employee of the department. While so detained, the dog shall be treated in a humane manner.

    (c) Licensed dogs not included.--Licensed dogs, when accompanied by their owner or handler, shall not be included under the provisions of this section unless caught in the act of pursuing, wounding or killing any domestic animal, wounding or killing any dogs, cats or household pets, or pursuing, wounding or attacking human beings.
    Pay special note to Subparagraph (a). You don't even have to advise them in advance.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Need some advice for a friend of our family about a dog issue

    Thank you! All very helpful

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Need some advice for a friend of our family about a dog issue

    If one attacks - use whatever force you see fit to stop the attack.

    I cannot begin to count the number of times I've either killed a dog or cause it injury that required it to put down later or need taken to the vet - all because they attacked. And if the dogs even touch you in a violent manner, not only kill it - but sue the owners into the dirt.

    3 P.S. § 459-501 says you can kill an attacking dog and face no civil liability for it. PA Title 18, Chapter 5 says you can break a law if faced with great harm or put in a position of having to pick the lessor of two evils.
    RIP: SFN, 1861, twoeggsup, Lambo, jamesjo, JayBell, 32 Magnum, Pro2A, mrwildroot, dregan, Frenchy, Fragger, ungawa, Mtn Jack, Grapeshot, R.W.J., PennsyPlinker, Statkowski, Deanimator, roland, aubie515

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