Conceal carry in church.

[PAMedic=F|A=]

I am in leadership at our church and our official policy on carrying in church is to have no policy. In other words, do as the law allows.

A more interesting twist on the question, perhaps, is how do we design and implement an intruder policy that best makes use of what ever firearms might be available at any point in time. On any given Sunday we never know who might or might not be armed, where they are sitting, and what their training and inclination to use their weapon might be. How to recognize a threat, evade, escape, and provide a safe and effective counter are all things to be considered in dealing with a congregation of several hundred people of all ages.

EXAMPLE: At the end of the offering a teenaged suspect jumps up, grabs the offering plates, waves a knife in a generally threatening gesture towards no one in particular, and then heads towards the nearest exit. To my mind that is a "no shoot" situation. But will all those who are capable of responding agree with me?

ANOTHER EXAMPLE: A man rushes into the meeting and grabs a women or attempts to abduct a child. (Is it a separated or deranged spouse or father?) Would you shoot?

FINAL EXAMPLE: (Much easier) - a perpetrator directly threatens you, your family, or people in your location of the sanctuary with some kind of imminent and deadly force. No question but that given the opportunity the right to self defense must be exercised.

I think it wise and prudent, therefore, to have a VOLUNTARY meeting of all those who carry, open or otherwise, to have general understanding of how responses to various scenarios might look.

When stuff happens people will respond as they will...., but no harm to talk it over before the fact.

A theme I have heard repeated throughout this thread is that attacks by Muslims on worshiping communities are imminent and inevitable. To this I reply, we need to hit these savages hard where they are now and keep the battle in their back yard. Cancer must be stopped before it spreads. I hope the US and the rest of the world, including moderate Muslim countries, come to realize the seriousness of the threat and decide to engage in other than politically motivated and made for TV responses to eliminate the threat of these extremists.

All three are shoots.

1 Because as soon as the knife came out person one would be down, not waiting for him to get a chance to head for the door. Additionally, there are always people in the common area outside of the worship room, usually with very young children.

2. Kidnapping someone in church. It does not take a doctorate in psychology to recognize this person is dangerous.

3. Clear.

Weird...

I was in church yesterday before it started thinking about this carry in church thread and why it would make good sense to carry in church because of the threats towards Christians (and white people) lately. Even had a picture in my head of some ISIS scum coming in and opening on us.

Then a guest speaker came up to the mic and started out by mentioning ISIS and the warzone in Baltimore.

Wow. Sounds like a sign I need to carry more often.

Later on yesterday I ran into an open carrier at a playground. Great guy and we had a nice chat about carrying.

Safest playground ever (not on a school property).

We have a retired Penna. State Trooper in our congregation. Some service members, current and retired. We support missions world wide, including to moslem countries, including those that are both very unstable & unfriendly to countries which regularly kill Christians. We also pay for arabic bibles & so on. Under most definitions you can make a justification that we are a legitimate target.

[CarryForProtection]

To me, public places that attract a lot of people at the same time are the places I want to have my pistol the most. The more people there are around, the more chances there are of something unexpected happening beyond my control. By all means, I think people should carry at church (so long as it is still legal for you to do so), albeit quiet and concealed. We should all be ready to protect our brothers and sisters by all means necessary, especially when we gather together.

Schools, Museums, Banks, Movies, Malls, Parks, Trails, Tubing, Golfing, Walking down the sidewalk, Home, Daycare, Driving, Restaurants, and of course Churches. At every single one of these places (and many many more), I will feel safer if I'm allowed to keep and bear arms for self defense.

Laws like Section 912, when written in their entirely ambiguous ways, will do very little (or less) to deter criminals from acting out in schools or any other place listed above. It will however eliminate several possible saviors (LAGO's) from being able to extinguish the threat. I don't think I could handle losing my child in a school attack - I believe I would shut down and fall apart. Can you imagine if any one of the millions of responsible LTCF holders could possibly save just one life (or more) to prevent such a tragedy, but they would be breaking in the law in the process? How is that not absurd? It should be illegal to make laws that don't allow us to keep ourselves safe. It needs to be written into law (if not done so already) that Self Defense definitively qualifies for "other lawful purpose".

It is not guns, but rather Mental Instability, that causes man-made disasters.

LAGO = Law Abiding Gun Owner

Carry on...

[rwilson452]

I the case of kidnapping, in my mind, there are factors to consider. can I take the shot and absolutely, positively be sure I will not hurt the child. A small baby could be seriously injured when the baby falls to the floor. I would consider drawing and trying to get the kidnapper to stop. Hopefully the good folks around would surround the kidnapper and assist. If they can't get away they have second thoughts. Taking the shot would be a last resort.

[CarryForProtection]

Even in a high stress situation, stay calm and remember:

"Be sure that your firearm is loaded."
"Never point a firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy."
"Always be sure of your target and what is beyond it."
"Keep your finger off the trigger until you are on target and ready to fire."
(I repeat it like it's so easy, when in reality I have no idea what it would be like - thank goodness!)

All of those people in the room running around in panic trying to secure their loved ones and get to safety. How would anyone manage to not inadvertently muzzle innocent people if you draw your weapon. Imagine the tragic possibilities of missing your target... But if someone has already shot to kill someone, you then have to take the shot to stop the madness. Practice and training are very important for enhancing preparedness. But as Statkowski put it, "...planning goes out the window."

[alpacaheat]

Still think Church carry isn't a good idea? Christians are targets by so many groups and nut-jobs..


I CC'd into Church twice yesterday. Went pocket instead of IWB because it concealed better with a tucked-in shirt that way, but I'm a believer now (in Church CC). My Church has an incredible number of Vets, so I have the feeling we're very-well protected. I have actually noticed a shoulder holster on one man in front of me once.

[rwilson452]

Even in a high stress situation, stay calm and remember:

"Be sure that your firearm is loaded."
"Never point a firearm at anything you are not willing to destroy."
"Always be sure of your target and what is beyond it."
"Keep your finger off the trigger until you are on target and ready to fire."
(I repeat it like it's so easy, when in reality I have no idea what it would be like - thank goodness!)

All of those people in the room running around in panic trying to secure their loved ones and get to safety. How would anyone manage to not inadvertently muzzle innocent people if you draw your weapon. Imagine the tragic possibilities of missing your target... But if someone has already shot to kill someone, you then have to take the shot to stop the madness. Practice and training are very important for enhancing preparedness. But as Statkowski put it, "...planning goes out the window."

An old military expression,"No plan survives first contact with the enemy."

[SwampFoxZ71]

An old military expression,"No plan survives first contact with the enemy."

Correct, but you have no plan if there's no ability to make first contact with the enemy. I wouldn't want to only be in a position where the enemy could contact me.

[markshere2]

Correct, but you have no plan if there's no ability to make first contact with the enemy. I wouldn't want to only be in a position where the enemy could contact me.

This.^^^^^^^^

1) Plan.
Know that the plan is something from which you deviate.
Have a plan B.

2) Know that you will prolly wind up re-acting to the enemy's action.

3) Forcing the enemy to react to your actions and anticipating that reaction is smart fighting.

[flejl]

I happened to find this thread while reading up on CCW in PA churches because it seems like these people no longer hold places of worship as sacred and they have become targets as seen in the news lately.

I guess as a society we have really hit bottom and now I am really considering CCW when I go to church, but I have to say this really bothers me...

I did a few searches and could not see any legal reason I cannot carry in church and also could not find any legal statements that make me believe the Catholic Church or the Allentown diocese has said anything to prevent me from doing this.

Other than the moral delma of such action, since I have a CCW, is anyone aware of any legal reason I cannot do so in church?

[buxbandit]

I happened to find this thread while reading up on CCW in PA churches because it seems like these people no longer hold places of worship as sacred and they have become targets as seen in the news lately.

I guess as a society we have really hit bottom and now I am really considering CCW when I go to church, but I have to say this really bothers me...

I did a few searches and could not see any legal reason I cannot carry in church and also could not find any legal statements that make me believe the Catholic Church or the Allentown diocese has said anything to prevent me from doing this.

Other than the moral delma of such action, since I have a CCW, is anyone aware of any legal reason I cannot do so in church?

No