Conceal carry in church.

[Hokkmike]

I am in leadership at our church and our official policy on carrying in church is to have no policy. In other words, do as the law allows.

A more interesting twist on the question, perhaps, is how do we design and implement an intruder policy that best makes use of what ever firearms might be available at any point in time. On any given Sunday we never know who might or might not be armed, where they are sitting, and what their training and inclination to use their weapon might be. How to recognize a threat, evade, escape, and provide a safe and effective counter are all things to be considered in dealing with a congregation of several hundred people of all ages.

EXAMPLE: At the end of the offering a teenaged suspect jumps up, grabs the offering plates, waves a knife in a generally threatening gesture towards no one in particular, and then heads towards the nearest exit. To my mind that is a "no shoot" situation. But will all those who are capable of responding agree with me?

ANOTHER EXAMPLE: A man rushes into the meeting and grabs a women or attempts to abduct a child. (Is it a separated or deranged spouse or father?) Would you shoot?

FINAL EXAMPLE: (Much easier) - a perpetrator directly threatens you, your family, or people in your location of the sanctuary with some kind of imminent and deadly force. No question but that given the opportunity the right to self defense must be exercised.

I think it wise and prudent, therefore, to have a VOLUNTARY meeting of all those who carry, open or otherwise, to have general understanding of how responses to various scenarios might look.

When stuff happens people will respond as they will...., but no harm to talk it over before the fact.

A theme I have heard repeated throughout this thread is that attacks by Muslims on worshiping communities are imminent and inevitable. To this I reply, we need to hit these savages hard where they are now and keep the battle in their back yard. Cancer must be stopped before it spreads. I hope the US and the rest of the world, including moderate Muslim countries, come to realize the seriousness of the threat and decide to engage in other than politically motivated and made for TV responses to eliminate the threat of these extremists.

[clarencecoffee]

You have to weigh the risk of needing it and not having it against the risk of being discovered carrying and being charged with a first degree misdemeanor for having it, potentially losing for life your right to carry or even own a firearm.

I am not a lawyer but if you absolutely needed to protect human life on school grounds, the following defense in court is in the law:

(c) Defense—It shall be a defense that the weapon is possessed and used in conjunction with a lawful supervised school activity or course or is possessed for other lawful purpose. (Added by L.1980, Act 167(1), eff. 12/15/80.)

Having the means to save a life I would say is a lawful purpose.

Best bet though is to just avoid the school.

I would never advocate breaking the law but it would certainly look to me like carrying with a license is a lawful purpose.

[Bang]

Problem is, you will have to choose, guided by your attorney, on who will be the finder of fact(s)...a judge, no jury, or a jury, which will be guided by the judge's colloquy. I think one would have a better chance at a reasoned finding in World's End than in the counties in southeast Penna.

[JAKIII]

Throwing coins in the collection plate is bourgeois... your weekly offertory should not make noise as you drop it in. Oh, wait... wrong thread.

[clarencecoffee]

Problem is, you will have to choose, guided by your attorney, on who will be the finder of fact(s)...a judge, no jury, or a jury, which will be guided by the judge's colloquy. I think one would have a better chance at a reasoned finding in World's End than in the counties in southeast Penna.

Unfortunately you are 100% correct.

That is why you need to understand that bringing a gun into the situation has to be the last resort. That is why that although inappreciate so called "stand your ground laws", I have no problem with a retreat. I will only use a firearm as a last resort to stop a threat to life and limb that cannot be avoided.

That is also why I do not open carry in a public place. Keep it hidden and no one knows you have it.

[rwilson452]

Throwing coins in the collection plate is bourgeois... your weekly offertory should not make noise as you drop it in. Oh, wait... wrong thread.

How about if they are 1 oz. gold coins?

[JAKIII]

How about if they are 1 oz. gold coins?

Well played.

[Statkowski]

When stuff happens people will respond as they will...., but no harm to talk it over before the fact.

People can always discuss "what if" from now until Doomsday, which is not necessarily a bad thing. But, to paraphrase the first part of your sentence, when the shit hits the fan, things will occur as they occur.

And as I learned on General Staff in the Army, the minute the first shot is fired, all the war planning goes out the window.

[SwampFoxZ71]

Thanks to all of you for bringing this subject up. I had either been wearing my shirts outside my khakis to conceal or simply not taking it when I was in the more 'dress up' mode for church.

This particular thread got me thinking and I picked up a pocket holster to use with the khakis. Worked great today!

Not my preferred method but at least I was able to do so comfortably and still looked respectable.

Thanks guys!

[alpacaheat]

Weird...

I was in church yesterday before it started thinking about this carry in church thread and why it would make good sense to carry in church because of the threats towards Christians (and white people) lately. Even had a picture in my head of some ISIS scum coming in and opening on us.

Then a guest speaker came up to the mic and started out by mentioning ISIS and the warzone in Baltimore.

Wow. Sounds like a sign I need to carry more often.

Later on yesterday I ran into an open carrier at a playground. Great guy and we had a nice chat about carrying.

Safest playground ever (not on a school property).