NFA Engraving in PA

[GunLawyer001]

It's down at the bottom of the page in fine print:

Contact Us Today

For more information or to place an order click the contact us button to the right.


I inquired and got a response the next day.

What am I missing here? There's nothing on that page that says that they hold an FFL, nor at the "contact us" link, in the fine print or otherwise.

If you're implying that you asked them if they hold an FFL, and they told you that they did, then my first comment still holds: Before anyone ships a firearm to a business, be sure that it's legal to do so, and have a first-hand basis for believing that, not an anonymous second-hand implication.

In this case, they need to have an FFL to do work on an NFA firearm without the owner being present. I'm not sure why any business that's soliciting gun work would omit any mention of being an FFL in their solicitations.

[bowkillpa]

What your missing is PA resident.. How is it we can ship rifles and shotguns to one another within our state as a "private sale"?

Your comments are based on manufacturing. If I had the barrel cut or my shotgun stock cut that would need my presence in arms length. Correction: All I need is my Form 1 approval and I can ship just the barrel or stock per gunsmiths request.

Engraving does not have to be NFA reasons you know. I may want a USMC engraved on my 16" AR and that's fine. I can ship that puppy over "receiver" and have it done without breaking the law. I would include a return shipping label and call it a day.
Correction: Again you will need to include you PA ID for there inbound book.

Back on track...now if it was an out of state engraver I would question being an FFL holder before shipping. If that was the case I would go with Molonlabe

http://www.molonlabe.com/engraving/engraving.html

[GunLawyer001]

What your missing is PA resident.. How is it we can ship rifles and shotguns to one another within our state as a "private sale"?

Your comments are based on manufacturing. If I had the barrel cut or my shotgun stock cut that would need my presence in arms length. Correction: All I need is my Form 1 approval and I can ship just the barrel or stock per gunsmiths request.

Engraving does not have to be NFA reasons you know. I may want a USMC engraved on my 16" AR and that's fine. I can ship that puppy over "receiver" and have it done without breaking the law. I would include a return shipping label and call it a day.
Correction: Again you will need to include you PA ID for there inbound book.

Back on track...now if it was an out of state engraver I would question being an FFL holder before shipping. If that was the case I would go with Molonlabe
. . .

So....now, they are NOT an FFL, to the best of your knowledge? But here in this thread, you suggest transferring them an NFA firearm for engraving?

The Feds do regulate interstate transfers of firearms. Pennsylvania only regulates some of them. But they both regulate possession and transfer of NFA firearms. And shipping your new NFA firearm to an engraving company, not a gunsmith, is not OK, not in every instance.

[Gun]

What your missing is PA resident.. How is it we can ship rifles and shotguns to one another within our state as a "private sale"?

Your comments are based on manufacturing. If I had the barrel cut or my shotgun stock cut that would need my presence in arms length. Correction: All I need is my Form 1 approval and I can ship just the barrel or stock per gunsmiths request.

Engraving does not have to be NFA reasons you know. I may want a USMC engraved on my 16" AR and that's fine. I can ship that puppy over "receiver" and have it done without breaking the law. I would include a return shipping label and call it a day.
Correction: Again you will need to include you PA ID for there inbound book.

This has nothing to do with PA residents, or shipping intrastate for a private sale of long guns.

GL's comments are not based on manufacturing, but gunsmithing. https://www.atf.gov/file/55461/download

Any person who engages in an activity or process that primarily adds to or changes firearm's appearance, by camouflaging firearm by painting, dipping, or applying tape, or by engraving the external surface of a firearm, does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Contro lAct. Any person who is licensed as a dealer/gunsmith, and who camouflages or engraves firearms as described in this ruling does not need to be licensed as a manufacturer under the Gun Control Act. Any person who is engaged in the business of camouflaging or engraving firearms as described in this
ruling must be licensed as a dealer, which includes a gunsmith, under the Gun Control Act.

Shipping only the receiver to a dealer for engraving does not make the receiver an NFA item, unless it is the full rifle being shipped, whether or not a tax stamp has been issued.

[bowkillpa]

YES there an FFL. Christ!

Just for kicks and giggles I purchased my next AK pistol today for my SBR project on Classic Firearms and I did a quick FFL search though I have my favorite.. Just so happens I plugged in the zip of Pottstown and HOLY SHIT. There it was..Laserworx.

https://www.classicfirearms.com/ffl-lookup

Search on Laserworxs..
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_14/57...engraving.html

Oh and for the record It was stated by ftownkev to try Laserworx when I first opened this post.

So....now, they are NOT an FFL, to the best of your knowledge? But here in this thread, you suggest transferring them an NFA firearm for engraving?

The Feds do regulate interstate transfers of firearms. Pennsylvania only regulates some of them. But they both regulate possession and transfer of NFA firearms. And shipping your new NFA firearm to an engraving company, not a gunsmith, is not OK, not in every instance.

[GunLawyer001]

YES there an FFL. Christ!

Just for kicks and giggles I purchased my next AK pistol today for my SBR project on Classic Firearms and I did a quick FFL search though I have my favorite.. Just so happens I plugged in the zip of Pottstown and HOLY SHIT. There it was..Laserworx.

https://www.classicfirearms.com/ffl-lookup

Search on Laserworxs..
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_8_14/57...engraving.html

Oh and for the record It was stated by ftownkev to try Laserworx when I first opened this post.

Your link shows just a "no license on file" when we put in Pottstown's ZIP code. However, because you seem to be quite excitable about this, and it's important for PAFOA users to stay legal, I did a few Google searches, found the redacted FFL # for Laserworx LLC, and ran that through the ATF search:

License Number: 8-23-XXX-XX-XX-07393
Expiration Date: 07/01/2017
License Name: LASERWORX LLC
Trade Name:
Premise Address:
236 E HIGHT ST POTTSTOWN PA - 19464
Mailing Address: 236 E HIGHT ST POTTSTOWN PA - 19464

We don't need proof of claims beyond a reasonable doubt here, but we need SOME evidence that we can rely on. The ATF website is enough. An anonymous poster on the Internet is not, particularly when the anon poster gets a lot of the laws wrong.

[bowkillpa]

"no license on file" means this particular FFL holder (Laserworx) has no ties with them (Classic Firearms) a far as sales goes. They (Laserworx) "engrave" and not so much draw attention as a collector or dealer transfer in weapons. In other words no one has used them as a direct dealer for this particular interest but local engraving.

Now...

As a PAFOA "lawyer" you could of saved a lot of padding on my post and just went to the ATF search yourself (as you did near the end tonight) and odds are you would of moved on knowing this is a safe direction post.

Glad you put forth effort and we can all agree Laserworx is OK. I like others that PM'd me agree there legit.

So my only question to you is how many SBR'S do you have and what shop do you recommend to do NFA engraving per my post?

Your link shows just a "no license on file" when we put in Pottstown's ZIP code. However, because you seem to be quite excitable about this, and it's important for PAFOA users to stay legal, I did a few Google searches, found the redacted FFL # for Laserworx LLC, and ran that through the ATF search:

License Number: 8-23-XXX-XX-XX-07393
Expiration Date: 07/01/2017
License Name: LASERWORX LLC
Trade Name:
Premise Address:
236 E HIGHT ST POTTSTOWN PA - 19464
Mailing Address: 236 E HIGHT ST POTTSTOWN PA - 19464

We don't need proof of claims beyond a reasonable doubt here, but we need SOME evidence that we can rely on. The ATF website is enough. An anonymous poster on the Internet is not, particularly when the anon poster gets a lot of the laws wrong.

[GunLawyer001]

"no license on file" means this particular FFL holder (Laserworx) has no ties with them (Classic Firearms) a far as sales goes. They (Laserworx) "engrave" and not so much draw attention as a collector or dealer transfer in weapons. In other words no one has used them as a direct dealer for this particular interest but local engraving.

Now...

As a PAFOA "lawyer" you could of saved a lot of padding on my post and just went to the ATF search yourself (as you did near the end tonight) and odds are you would of moved on knowing this is a safe direction post.

Glad you put forth effort and we can all agree Laserworx is OK. I like others that PM'd me agree there legit.

How will you ever learn if others clean up your messes for you?

BTW, putting "lawyer" in quotes is just as wrong as writing "there" when you mean "they're", or "could of " and "would of" when you meant "could have" and "would have". But that's nit-picking. Your major error was misunderstanding why it's wrong to use PAFOA to send business to a company that requires an FFL for that kind of work, without any solid evidence that they had an FFL. It's not on their web page, where they don't claim to have an FFL. It's not consistent with the testimonials about "they did it while I waited", which you could do at any machine shop because you didn't turn over the gun and leave. It wasn't proven by any of your links, because people can solicit all sorts of business without being legally qualified to handle it.

No, it was up to me to prove your point. You just "assumed". And that's no way for you to go through life, son.

We can't just trust that businesses are right all the time. Most of the adults here understand that the 2 worst sources of gun law advice are cops, and people working in gun shops. People working in an engraving shop are probably even less reliable on firearms laws. So your reliance on a business being an FFL when they don't even claim to be an FFL on their web page, or as far as I could see on their storefront, was weak. Encouraging others to rely on unsupported beliefs was morally wrong. It's also incorrect that you can legally have an FFL make an NFA firearm for you once you have the approved Form 1, but I'm not going to get into that here, because the same experts who ignore the statutes and rely on "we've done it that way for years without being caught" will become indignant and start pointing & shrieking like the pod people in "Invasion of the Body Snatchers".

It's a bad habit to just assume things, especially where the penalties for being wrong are what they are in America today. PAFOA has a justified reputation for being a reliable source of good info. So the next time you're asked to back up a statement, look for verifiable facts. Like I did for you this time.

[Gun]

IANAL.

https://www.atf.gov/faq-page/321#t321n12391

ANYONE doing work (including engraving) on a firearm must be licensed, even if you stand there and watch.

Shipping a receiver intrastate requires the recipient to the licensed, if the recipient is doing work on the receiver.

If you send your firearm to an unlicensed person to perform work on it, you could have possibly illegally transferred your firearm. This is not the same as shipping a long gun to another resident in the state.

BEFORE tax stamping that receiver (lower), have it engraved (and correct), AND make sure the lower works, BUT NOT IN AN SBR configuration! That stamp is NON-TRANSFERRABLE to another receiver, so get it right the first time.

The link also answers a question pertaining to NFA goodies and gunsmiths.


Again, IANAL.

[GunLawyer001]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Century Gothic]. . .

ANYONE doing work (including engraving) on a firearm must be licensed, even if you stand there and watch.

. . .

That may be true today, after ATF has narrowed the scope of what is permissible. Those "build parties" where people took their own "80% receivers" and used CNC machinery that was programmed by someone else for a fee, that's now viewed by ATF as "manufacturing" by the guy who programmed the CNC machinery. Even though the owner of the parts is not only standing there, he's the one feeding the part into the machine.

Further reason to be wary of filing your own Form 1 as the manufacturer of the NFA firearm, then having an FFL do the actual manufacturing (bobbing barrels with the firearm attached, for example) without him filing the required Form 2. It's not the same as a manufacturer subcontracting some of the work out to a machine shop that has an FFL/SOT.

Also, read these:

https://www.atf.gov/file/11711/download

https://www.atf.gov/regulations-ruli...ng-2010-10.htm