Armed Response To a Terroist Attack (Two day class May 30-31)

[TRB]

Dear Friends and Fellow Shooters:

This is our schedule for 2015

Emergency Rifle, Response to a Terrorist Attack
May 30-31, 2015
Tuition $655.00
You’ll need a pistol (380auto or larger) and 200 rounds of pistol ammunition, at least two magazines or speed loaders, eye (safety glasses) and hearing protection, a sturdy belt, a high-quality, concealable belt-holster, a baseball cap, and rain gear. Our work will be from a concealed draw, so please make sure your equipment is genuinely concealable and suitable for continuous, daily wear.

We will accept most medium and heavy, autoloading, military rifles in 7.62x51 (308), 7.62x39 (30 Soviet), 5.54X39 (22 Soviet), 7.62X63 (30-06), M1 Carbine, 5.56x45 (223) caliber, or 6.8mm/SPC. Pistol-cartridge-firing carbines, such as the Beretta CX4, are also acceptable. We will accept military rifles chambered for rimfire. Bolt guns, lever actions, and other, low-capacity, sporting rifles are not recommended. Slings are mandatory, as we will be running a hot range. High-magnification, high profile, close-eye-relief scopes are not suitable for our purposes. Good, iron sights are recommended. Low-power, low-profile, forward-mounted scopes, are acceptable and are also recommended, along with EOTech and Aimpoint sighting systems. The best rifle to bring is a military autoloader. Students should be advised that their rifles will see some strenuous, rugged use and may get scratched up a bit. Pretty guns are best left at home. You will need 400 rounds of rifle ammunition.

Course will be outdoors and will entail some physical activity, so you will need to dress appropriately (long pants, long-sleeve shirt, sturdy shoes). You may get dirty, so wear something heavy-duty but inexpensive. Don't show up in sweat pants or shorts. Finally, you will need a gun bag or box, so that you can safely carry your handgun on and off the range, unless, of course, you are authorized to carry concealed, in which case I presume you will be carrying to and from the range.

All longarms must be carried on and off the range in cases.

Women’s Defensive Handgun
June 1-2, 2015
Tuition $550

“Completion” Course
June 1, 2015
Rifle (50 rounds) and pistol (150 rounds)
Deals with subjects like Retention and Disarms as well as Treatment of Gunshot Wounds
Tuition $425.00

ADDITIONAL INFORMATION at http://defense-training.com/dti/

Ray Schuerger
Coordinator, DTI-Pgh
4211 Steubenville Pike
Pittsburgh PA 15205

412-921-1474

For those of you who may not be familiar with John Farnam, he has been training civilians and military for more than three decades. Here is a link to an interview.

John Farnam interviewed by David Jordan

[Cyclops]

In spite of the great risk that flames will be coming my way from other forum participants, all I can say is the $665 course is a crock of you know what. Having been ambushed by VC and directly engaged by NVA, I can say with great confidence that no role playing prepares you for the fight although continual training does teach you to adapt to the fight. Anyone who actually believes that a day of training is going to prepare them for an unanticipated fight with terrorists is smoking an illegal substance (depending upon what state you are in).

Participants will be paying $665 for fantasy fulfillment. Shooting at targets that are not shooting back at you is a game. In this case a very expensive game. I don't know how many combat vets are reading this, but I would love to read the opinions of any who are.

[TRB]

John Farnam was a Marine officer who received two Purple Hearts while deployed in Viet Nam.

There may be no training that can prepare anyone for whatever they may meet up with in the real world. However, there are those who attempt to create relevant training exercises for people who want to advance their skills. IT is correct to say there is no two day course that will prepare someone for armed conflict. Just like all defensive training, the real learning begins when the student finishes the course and begins thinking and practicing on their own. That turns the two day course into a life time of learning.

[sprrdhawk44]

In spite of the great risk that flames will be coming my way from other forum participants, all I can say is the $665 course is a crock of you know what. Having been ambushed by VC and directly engaged by NVA, I can say with great confidence that no role playing prepares you for the fight although continual training does teach you to adapt to the fight. Anyone who actually believes that a day of training is going to prepare them for an unanticipated fight with terrorists is smoking an illegal substance (depending upon what state you are in).

Participants will be paying $665 for fantasy fulfillment. Shooting at targets that are not shooting back at you is a game. In this case a very expensive game. I don't know how many combat vets are reading this, but I would love to read the opinions of any who are.

Do you have an issue with the training, or the price? I think the training is a great idea, but then ANY training from a competent and qualified instructor is. The price is pretty steep, I agree, but if he's filling classes then that's what the market is bearing.

[Cyclops]

John Farnam was a Marine officer who received two Purple Hearts while deployed in Viet Nam.

There may be no training that can prepare anyone for whatever they may meet up with in the real world. However, there are those who attempt to create relevant training exercises for people who want to advance their skills. IT is correct to say there is no two day course that will prepare someone for armed conflict. Just like all defensive training, the real learning begins when the student finishes the course and begins thinking and practicing on their own. That turns the two day course into a life time of learning.

Do you have an issue with the training, or the price? I think the training is a great idea, but then ANY training from a competent and qualified instructor is. The price is pretty steep, I agree, but if he's filling classes then that's what the market is bearing.

You are both correct. Probably just had my head screwed on wrong when I took too extreme a position. In fact training is the beginning of learning. That is a steep price though.

[TRB]

It's all relative.

I know a kid who got accepted at an Ivy League school and a few schools of lesser reputation. All of the schools are good. His parents are making the decision based solely on which school costs the least. The quality (real or imaginary) of the education is not a consideration in their decision. Nor are the networking possibilities or the exposure to (possibly) greater minds. This is to say nothing of the job opportunities upon graduation or in the future. To their way of thinking all bachelors degrees are equal.

Those wishing to drive a Rolls Royce expect to pay for one. There is no doubt that an econo-box of any origin will perform transportation duties well. How you get there depends on what you are willing to or are able to spend.

[sprrdhawk44]

It's all relative.

I know a kid who got accepted at an Ivy League school and a few schools of lesser reputation. All of the schools are good. His parents are making the decision based solely on which school costs the least. The quality (real or imaginary) of the education is not a consideration in their decision. Nor are the networking possibilities or the exposure to (possibly) greater minds. This is to say nothing of the job opportunities upon graduation or in the future. To their way of thinking all bachelors degrees are equal.

Those wishing to drive a Rolls Royce expect to pay for one. There is no doubt that an econo-box of any origin will perform transportation duties well. How you get there depends on what you are willing to or are able to spend.

I understand what you're saying, but it is a little overly expensive in my opinion. Some training and "schools" really are as good as others, for less money. I say that, considering that I can take classes from other equally well known, competent, and professional instructors for $450-$525 for a two-day class. Guys like Vickers, Proctor, McNamara, Hackathorn and Pannone.

A fancy name for a weapons class doesn't mean it's worth more.

[TRB]

Agreed. Fancy names do not a great class make. It is the quality of the training and what the student brings (not gear!) to the class that does. If you perform due diligence on Farnam you will be satisfied that not only is he a highly respected contemporary of Hackathorn et al, that he has written the books and been teaching as long or longer than most.

This is a two day class. For some reason when I posted it the system would not let me enter two days with a hyphen. If a mod could chime in and help make that change it would be appreciated.

The issue isn't the price. Is it a little bit more expensive than other classes? More than some and less than others. In the end, when the training is as good as it gets will anyone really miss an extra hundred bucks?

[matrosov]

Cyclops I'll Play

Previous country previous life I've seen incoming fire. Since I came here 20+ years ago I've also been taking classes with John, Vickers, Magpul some good local instructors. I usually go to DTI at least once a year for the past 10-12 years. This year is no exception.

In my opinion there are several types of people who seek out let's call them tier one trainers.
1) Groupies-Those are the ones that live in fantasy land and think that they can magically transform themselves thru osmosis into high speed low drag by being in the presence of greatness. Have seen some of those but not many.

2) Civilians and non tactical LEOs Those are majority in civilian classes they are tired of spotty training offered by NRA and local departments and deciding to get best training money can buy. We can argue about the price but I can tell you that John and other guys do make you work for your money.

In my experience people in this category don't take a class to play soldier they hold no illusion about who they are and who they are not. They take it to be as prepared as they can possibly be and the rest is in God's hands.

And training they do receive. I've seen grown men cry, shake and collapse in those classes. Those instructors including John do know how to rattle your cage and push you so at least you have a glimpse of the real thing and if you are smart enough you can start examining your motivations your fears etc etc etc.


Here is where I am also going to slightly disagree with Cyclops. No training can prepare you to kick yourself in the ass lean out of cover and return fire when bullets are fired at you. But if you are able to kick yourself from under the rock that training and practice will pay off. At least that was my experience the first time around back in previous life.

Let's be clear the 2 day training is meant to provide IMHO a) Higher pressure environment that will give you an idea of where you're lacking psychologically. and b) Set of drills and exercises that you can adapt to your static range plinking routine to get your muscle memory going.

It is not ideal but this is the best we as civilians are going to get.

3) Civilians with military/combat backgrounds Tactical LEOS Active Duty guys going for deployment-

As far as tac. LEOS and active duty deployable guys it's self-explanatory they know what's coming they know the training they want and they go and get it even if it means paying out of their own pocket.

I guess I fit in Civilian with mil background- The best I can describe what motivates me that the working dog is the happiest when he is being worked. It is a form of mental hygiene,( physical exhaustion and mental clarity) plus there is just no way I can do on my own (safety regulations, noise regulations, range regulations etc etc) what Guys above let me do in their classes so I pay for the ability to play, privilege of learning from somebody who's being teaching awhile and the abuse that I love so much .


Let's talk price now

The price is actually 2K for three days
1K tuition for 3 days
600 hotel for 5 days class in burgh and I'm in philly
200 in ammo
100 in gas
100 incidentals.

But from purely tuition standpoint I pay 1K for 3days worth of instruction my experience with John is that I will receive at least 36 hours worth of training that's 28 bucks an hour. My local range is offering an NRA personal protection something or other course. 10 hours for 200 bucks or 20 bucks an hour. That extra 8 bucks I give John, elevates level of learning twenty fold.

So 40% increase in price results in 2000% increase in value I can live with that.