Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #11
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    Default Re: Equipment To Load 223

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunowner99 View Post
    First step is to clean; I think I have that down with my vibratory shaker and walnut shells and nu-finish and dryer sheets ha ha! I plan to leave the primers in when I clean. For starters I will sort by head stamp and reload as such to keep it organized and consistent.
    When I started I sorted by 5.56 and .223, then I sorted the .223 into a pile with primer pocket crimp and those without. The .223 without primer pocket crimps will be the least amount of prep work, so I loaded those first.

    I never bothered to sort different head stamps in those piles, because if you're shooting for combat accuracy out of an AR, then you won't see a reward for the extra work.

    Now, I don't sort anything. I have a load that's safe and functional for all brass and I swage all primer pockets.

    I took 15 different headstamp cases (mix of 5.56 and .223), sample 1 of each, filled each with a water 5 times, and each time measured the volume, trying to be as consistent as possible. What I found was that the volume range was so wide for .223 that all 5.56 was encompassed in it, so now I don't believe you can't load 5.56 with the same charge you use for .223 and that lead me to decide on my moderate load I use for all brass.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunowner99 View Post
    Then I know that I need to lube. Spray the stuff on and shake in a bin and let dry. Anyone with a good recipe? Do I need to worry about the insides or no?
    I can't view ar15.com at work, but if you google "arfcom case lube" the first three results are what you need to read.

    I don't worry about the insides. A little bit will hit some of the case mouths when I mist them all twice. This does get transferred to the surfaces in the die. If you're getting sticking, do something different.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunowner99 View Post
    Next I full length size. Does this step also remove the primer on a Lee die? Also, what about this small base die, do I as a simplistic beginner need to do this?
    Yes, it deprimes with the decapping rod is installed in the center, you can run it without but I haven't found a reason I ever would. You'll get different responses on the small base die, my opinion is no, others will disagree, do some research on Brian Enos forum, The High Road forum, or somewhere else for more opinions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunowner99 View Post
    I need to chamfer and debur now. Then swage if a military crimp. Is my hand held thing suitable for this operation or will I blister myself? Maybe one of those case prep express things? I could swage on press but then I have to pull out a die and then put back in so I am concerned I will mess up my settings so to say. Ideas? Then I should use a case guage or is that before I trim? Don’t laugh please. I assume before and after trim operation?
    If you have the handheld deburrer like the Lyman Case Prep Multi Tool, then a quick twist with it on both ends will clean up your case mouth. It doesn't take much.

    I don't like disturbing my die settings. You could get a really cheap single stage press to set up the swaging die in, but I would look at the Dillon Super Swage 600 or other options.

    Case gauge can be used multiple times in the process to ensure you're never moving brass around, but most importantly you want it for after full length sizing to make sure your die is set right. Trim shouldn't move the case shoulder, unless you have a trimmer with a sizing die like the Dillon Rapid Trim electric trimmer, but it's a good way to check the finish trim dimension and verify your caliper reading. I check a couple, then do a couple hundred, check a few more, etc. This comes down to personal preference and how capable your equipment is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunowner99 View Post
    Prime, powder, seat crimp. All that with the Lee die set? I am a little confused because when I watch the Lee video it is full length sizing, decapping and priming all in position 1. Am I looking at this wrong?
    I don't know how the Lee primes, I would think you would need a hand held case primer. My Dillon primes on the down stroke. There is also an RSBC ram priming die. This could justify the purchase of a single stage press for that swaging die mentioned earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunowner99 View Post
    What am I forgetting? Of course measure charges frequently for safety and because I am a beginner, measure OAL, is there a gage for that or do I use my calipers?
    I use calipers for final cartridge OAL.

    I was surprised how useful a cheap powder funnel was after I got one, if you don't have one already.
    In America arms are free merchandise such that anyone who has the capital may make their houses into armories and their gardens into parks of artillery. - Ira Allen, 1796

  2. #12
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    Default Re: Equipment To Load 223

    What is your budget for a trimmer?

    Personally I would go powered, rather than hand crank.

    After resizing I do not bother to check length of brass. I have my world's finest trimmer set exactly to the length I want and then run every piece through. If the brass is already short enough then the trimmer will not touch it.

    You can buy bench mounted swagers from Dillon and RCBS if you don't want to do it on the press. I don't do reaming because that's an area of the brass I don't want to be messing around with in terms of taking off too much material.

    A lot of people have figured out ways to bang out all rifle ammo in one go on a progressive, but realistically for most people you need to break it down into 2 separate operations.

    1. Case prep which will consist of cleaning, resizing, trimming, chamfering, deburring, primer pocket swaging and cleaning. I also find after all that you've got brass trimmings and lube, so the brass ends up needing to be cleaned again.

    When done with all that you have put the brass back into spec and "like new".

    2. Reloading which will consist of installing a new primer, powder, seating the bullet and crimping as you desire. I finish with a quality control check with a case gauge and visual inspection.

  3. #13
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    Default Re: Equipment To Load 223

    Easy spray lube here: http://www.ak47.net/forums/t_6_42/285694_.html

    All full length dies will size the outer case body & have a decapping pin with an expander ball. You don't need to pull any of that unless you get into making match ammo & are using bushing dies & turning necks etc. You'll be fine with a Lee 223/556 full length die, but if you decide to get the RCBS small base, that's fine too. It's just made to make sure your brass fits any AR chamber easily.

    For primer crimps, you can actually use the reamer from your Lyman tool - that's the one with all the little different pieces that screw into the body housing right? You can chuck the reamer into a drill & go over the cases with a primer crimp & you should be good. If primers are hard to seat, keep trying or get a swage setup.

    Trimming is pretty important because all this work on the brass makes it "grow". You're not making match ammo, but you do want to have your neck tension on the bullet as similar as possible in each case. Also, if you never trim, eventually you'll have a hard time chambering as the neck gets out of spec. I have used a cheap Lee trimmer that trimmed too short & was a royal PITA. Lee makes some good stuff, but their cheap trimming tool is not very good. I have a L.E. Wilson trimmer, which is very accurate, but can be a bit slow. I would have to say for loading like this, you really won't find a better trimmer than Little Crow Gunwork's "World's Finest Trimmer" or WFT for short. The drawback on this trimmer is that it's a bit pricey for a single caliber trimmer. But, that little bit of extra $$ up front saves literally hours & hours of case prep time when doing a bunch of rifle brass.

  4. #14
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    Default Re: Equipment To Load 223

    Quote Originally Posted by wanneroo View Post
    What is your budget for a trimmer?

    Personally I would go powered, rather than hand crank.

    After resizing I do not bother to check length of brass. I have my world's finest trimmer set exactly to the length I want and then run every piece through. If the brass is already short enough then the trimmer will not touch it.
    Beat me to it, haha.

  5. #15
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    Default Re: Equipment To Load 223

    Quote Originally Posted by Gunowner99 View Post
    Thank you all for your help. Of course unfortunately for you, I have more questions and will try to ask them in a logical order by each stage to get it “right” in my mind. Hopefully this does not turn into a novel ha ha!

    I am loading for my multiple AR’s. The brass will not be specific and will have to chamber in any of them. As long as you full-length resize and keep the case lemgth trimmed to within SAAMI specs you will be fine. You will note that some 223 brass (eg Federal) is shorter than the trim-to length . . . it's fine. I have reloading gear for 9mm and associated componentry like scales and safety gear and the like. I use Lyman 49 as a base and go from there. I am trying to stick with Lee as I am the most familiar with that. Lee dies will work fine - I still use them. I use a Lee Classic Loader Turret press.

    First step is to clean; I think I have that down with my vibratory shaker and walnut shells and nu-finish and dryer sheets ha ha! All good. Same here, except I tumble outdoors and don't bother with any additive or dryer sheets. I plan to leave the primers in when I clean. Cases need to be trimmed (if necessary) AFTER re-sizing. Cases need to be lubed to be resized. Soooo . . . some folks give a light tumble, then lube/resize/decap, then finish case prep/trim, then clean with primer pocket now empty. If you use a lube that does not have to be removed, cleaning, lube, resize, case prep, then reload works too. For starters I will sort by head stamp and reload as such to keep it organized and consistent. This is good practice because cases have different internal volumes, and are more likely to match others with the same headstamp than any others. Cartridges with matching cases are more likely to shoot similarly

    Then I know that I need to lube. Spray the stuff on and shake in a bin and let dry. Clear plastic bag works better because lube gets on the bag walls, and the bag walls caress the cases Anyone with a good recipe? Not me - I use OneShot for pistol . . . not totally necessary but makes reloading on a progressive soooooo much easier . . . and a wax like Imperial for rifle. Do I need to worry about the insides or no? Just do it with a few cases lol. Be prepared to need more lube for the neck . . . it all depends on what lube you use and how you applied it. Some things really need to be experienced to determine whether or not you need to do something else lol.

    Next I full length size. Does this step also remove the primer on a Lee die? As long as the decapping pin is IN and properly adjusted . . . the way it comes from the factory eg . . . yes.Also, what about this small base die, do I as a simplistic beginner need to do this? NO. Do not go there until/unless you actually have issues suggesting the solution is a small base die.

    Then trim time. Check length first and then trim. RESIZE first then . . . etc So, there are powered trimmers, some that fits in a drill chuck, manual operations. I need something that is fairly inexpensive and I am thinking low volume to start like a 100 pieces at a time? What’s my best option? The drill chuck device? Start there. It will work, it will produce ammo. Personal preference, hand strength (I'm old and arthritic so I use other approaches now), etc will guide you.

    I need to chamfer and debur now. Yes, after trimming. Trimming often leaves a little "shred" on the edges. Then swage if a military crimp. Swage or ream. This only needs to be done once. Is my hand held thing suitable for this operation or will I blister myself? Just do it. We can't tell how you will react. You will get some ammo, then you can determine what needs to be done differently to suit YOU. Maybe one of those case prep express things? I could swage on press but then I have to pull out a die and then put back in so I am concerned I will mess up my settings so to say. Ideas? Lee Turrets are cheap. If you choose to swage on-press, get an extra turret for it.Then I should use a case guage or is that before I trim? Use your calipers to start with. Don’t laugh please. I assume before and after trim operation? Yes, you need to determine whether cases MUST be trimmed to be below SAAMI max length . . . later in life you will decide whether you want to trim all cases in a batch to the same length for consistency . . . but there's NO need to worry about that now. Just measure before, and at least samples after. Using a Lee Case Gauge and cutter produces consistent trim lenghts . . . until the case gauge wears down a bit from rubbing against the mandrel. But that takes a while lol.

    Then loading time. My plan is Lee dies, so which set do I need? Since you are using these in a semi-auto, you need to full length resize all the time for consistent feeding. So you do not need a neck-sizing die right now. That die is used in lieu of full-length resizing for bolt action guns; it is your call whether you purchase it now as part of a set, or buy a different set. The FCD is valuable - don't let anyone talk you out of that die. If you choose to crimp, it can deal with slightly different case lengths, and simplifies bullet seating adjustments. The Ultimate? I will buy another turret, another Pro Disc Auto Measure, riser and double disc kit, do I need another safety prime or is that a simple change from my 9mm set-up to my 223 and not worth the extra money? There are no PRIMER changes made to the press going from 9mm to 223 . . . both use SMALL primers . . . pistol for 9mm and rifle for 223.

    Prime, powder, seat crimp. All that with the Lee die set? I am a little confused because when I watch the Lee video it is full length sizing, decapping and priming all in position 1. Am I looking at this wrong? No, it's all done in that one die, the re-priming when the ram comes down.

    What am I forgetting? Of course measure charges frequently for safety and because I am a beginner, measure OAL, is there a gage for that or do I use my calipers? CALIPERS.

    Again, thanks for all of the help and sorry for the stupid questions I ask at times, I just want to understand and be safe.
    Don't make too many rounds on your first attempt - less to pull apart if you did it wrong. You might choose to make 5 to 10 at a single powder charge 5% to 10% (eg 7%) below max for whatever powder/bullet you choose, go to the range, and check for function. If successful, fine. If not go back and make changes to your process. Then make rounds at different powder charge levels, working up, and test them at the range at the same time for accuracy (and function). Then choose a load and make more on your 3rd or 4th session.

    GLHF and stay safe.
    Last edited by Twoboxer; February 25th, 2015 at 04:58 PM.

  6. #16
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    Default Re: Equipment To Load 223

    I like small base FL sizing for the AR series. I used Redding 223 dies. I routinely used mil spec brass.

    Dillon spray on Lube is great for fast and easy sizing.

    I also used a carbide expander button. This eliminated the need for internal lubrication.

    The AR requires high port pressures to reliably function.

    For the AR series I found best results with ball propellants. I used BL-C2, WC844 or 748. They all work well. They meter like water.

    Single base propellants will work well. They are not as progressive as the double base ball propellants. They do not meter as smoothly as the ball propellants.

    I am not conversant with newer generation propellants.

    I've never had a problem with "soft" primers in the AR 15. The firing pin floats but is not heavy. Others may have different experiences.
    Last edited by GeneCC; February 26th, 2015 at 05:45 PM.

  7. #17
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    Default Re: Equipment To Load 223

    A lot of great advice here. I would like to chime in with my 2cents. I don't know what powder you are planning to use but I found that if you use an extruded [rod] powder instead of a ball powder it can ''bridge'' in the case mouth and cause spilling and inaccurate filling because the case mouth is too small. I was using IMR4895 and had problems on a progressive. Switched to a ball powder and all is good.
    I have so many toys because my wife wont let me have a girlfriend.......

  8. #18
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    Default Re: Equipment To Load 223

    as others have stated, if you use military brass you will have to swage it to get primer into the primer pocket.
    i always full size my ar15 brass to ensure proper chambering/cycling/extracting.
    not necessary but i have a larry willis chamber gage that i use to bump the shoulder on my ar15 brass back .004, and all my bolt gun brass to .002
    that way your not stretching the brass and fatiguing it prematurely.
    i use old fashioned rcbs lube and lube pad, i roll the case on the pad and then i press the rim of the cartridge into the lube pad to lube the rim of cartridge.
    i use a hand crank..but i do all my reloading in the winter and do all my shooting in the summer..except for hunting of course.
    with spray lube you must spray entire case or you will be getting very familiar with a case extractor. never had much luck with spray lubes..

  9. #19
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    Default Re: Equipment To Load 223

    Quote Originally Posted by usmc21 View Post
    with spray lube you must spray entire case or you will be getting very familiar with a case extractor. never had much luck with spray lubes..
    The Dillon spray lube is awesome. I take a plastic bin filled with some brass, spray a few pumps in on the brass, mix it in good by hand, spray a few more if need be. It does a great job coating everything and haven't had any problems since going to it.

    I've used a lube pad and Redding case wax. Works fine but much slower and tedious. I don't have the problem with it for small quantities but for doing bulk ammo, no.

  10. #20
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    Default Re: Equipment To Load 223

    very true..if your reloading in bulk then that would be the way to go.
    i did try rcbs spray lube and it worked pretty good but it was nearly $10 a bottle.
    hornady spray i did not have much luck with, cases would keep wanting to get stuck in the sizer die.
    Last edited by usmc21; February 25th, 2015 at 10:42 PM.

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