LTCF Photo/Fees

[Bruce]

Is it typical that, in Lackawanna County (Scranton), they (the deputies/Sheriff staff) take your photo right there at the "Gun Permit" (that's what the paper sign says on the wall in the building) desk? Or do they expect you to bring one with you?

If they typically take the license photo for you, does anyone know if they allow you to bring your own ("passport" sized) photos?

Also, do they accept cash or a personal check as payment for the license?
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[Dredly]

They take one there... at least they do in Monroe, I'm pretty sure thats standard, I don't think anywhere in PA requires you to bring a pic.

also just a heads up - they took my pic when I first went in to drop off the app, not when I got the permit, so make sure you don't look like a slob

[jahwarrior72]

in lackawanna county, once you hand in the app, and pay the fee, which he'll take in cash or money order, the sheriff will run the PICS, then take your pic right then and there. different counties do it differently. in wayne county, you need an appointment. not in lackawanna.

[Bruce]

in lackawanna county, once you hand in the app, and pay the fee, which he'll take in cash or money order, the sheriff will run the PICS, then take your pic right then and there. different counties do it differently. in wayne county, you need an appointment. not in lackawanna.

My current license is from Wayne County; so I knew the deal there.

I feel the application and renewal process *should* be standard throughout Pennsylvania. After all, it is a Pennsylvania "state" license, not a "county specific" license; moreover, it is valid in over half the states in America.

Besides for purely political reasons, I do not see any logical reason to compel a current license holder to fill out the entire application each renewal. I mean, do they really expect my Date of Birth, Place of Birth, Mother's Maiden Name and such to change since my license was issued?

While I will not argue the fact that they have the *authority* to compel you to fill out the entire application at each renewal, I do not think that they are required to do this by any Pennsylvania law. If they are, *I* couldn't find the statute or case law.

I really don't get why they need references from the county you live in either; that seems rather silly. Wayne County did not require this. I also know Pike County does not require this (though I have heard anecdotes that strongly suggest that Pike County is very *anti-firearm* and does their best to discourage all LTCF applications).

The only reason I can see why they would require a full application be submitted at each renewal (complete with dob and place of birth and mother's maiden name et cetera) would be 1.) "because they can" and 2.) to passively demonstrate that they (the Sheriff's) do not approve of private citizens being licensed to carry firearms. In other words, they do it simply to be obstinate.

I could see PICS being run - though, I am pretty sure (99.99% sure) that if you had anything happen to you that would disqualify you from owning firearms, you would get a visit from some agency to remove the firearms from your house *plus* your license would automatically be revoked (and your LTCF file marked "revoked") long before you got a chance to *try* and renew your license. Still - I could see PICS being run.

I could see a "check box" on some sort of 'renewal form' to note if anything on your license had changed (such as weight, hair color, address, et cetera).

But, apart from this, forcing you to fill out the entire license (and I don't care how long it takes) is nothing more than a passive *message* they are trying to send to law-abiding LTCF holders - the message being either that they are either spiteful that they are charged with the responsibility to issue the licenses in the first place or that they just don't approve of citizens having these licenses at all - or both.

As for requiring that your references be from the county you live in, this seems downright rude to me. I am not applying for a county business license; I don't want to sell hot dogs out of my driveway with this license. This is not even a license to own or buy firearms; it is a license to carry firearms throughout the entire Commonwealth and in over half the United States of America!

I could see my neighbors not wanting another hot dog stand in town and having the opportunity to not support me starting one, but why should they need to know I want the lawful ability to carry concealed firearms? I already have the *right* to carry them around my neighborhood openly without any license - so why make me tell them I want to conceal my handguns? I mean, you'd think an anti-firearms Sheriff would want to make it as easy as possible for me to "continue" to carry concealed to promote that prefered (by most Law Enforcement Agencies) method of carry, no??

On top of this, compelling me to provide references from Lackawanna County specifically (my new county of residence) for a Pennsylvania LTCF basically amounts to the "government" (in this case, the Sheriff) telling me who I have to make friends with AND forcing me to tell (at least two) of my county neighbors that I carry guns.

What if I didn't want to "scare" my neighbors by telling them I am carrying guns? What if I have neighbors that love me, but are adamantly anti-gun? If I don't want to tell my neighbors I carry guns I shouldn't be *forced* into telling them by my Sheriff.

What is this? Some new strange kind of Megan's Law only just for gun owners? If you carry guns you have to tell people you live near that you carry concealed firearms whether you want to or not? WTF??

I hate being treated like a criminal when I am not.

Maybe my frustration comes from really bad previous experiences at the hands of "benevolent Sheriffs". I came from Long Island originally.

I know, I mean I really know, what being interrogated and raked over the coals and jumping through hoops to get the "privilege" to just *own* a handgun is like. The "Pistol Licensing" system there is run like a fascist police state. They required five references - from your neighborhood. All the references had to fill out a notarized affidavit *swearing* that I was, among other things, "of good moral character" and "not known to have violent tendencies". The Pistol Licensing investigator came out and personally (as in: in person) interviewed each of my references. Then they interviewed my next door neighbors (who were not references) and my across-the-street neighbors (also were not references), just for good measure. My fingerprints were run through the state police. FBI fingerprints were run as well. A state-wide records search was conducted to find if I had any disqualifying psychological/psychiatric medical history (this was not just a "check-box" question - they ran a physical search through state records in Albany). They interviewed my boss (who was not a reference) for good measure as well. It took a year - to the day - to find out if I was approved. I was.

Believe me, I know very well what it is like to go through heck to just even buy/own/touch a handgun.

That process made me upset. I didn't like being treated like I was "guilty until being proven (beyond any possible question or doubt) innocent".

However, the process to *renew* my NYS Pistol License was a matter of dropping off two passport sized photos and a money order. That was it - a couple of pictures and a money order - three minutes to have a new license typed up, my photo glued on and the seal imprinted. Granted, it was a rather large sum of money, but I didn't have to re-state my place of birth or mother's maiden name on a form.

I will not (not ever) try to argue that NYS is more "gun friendly" than Pa, or more "citizen friendly" for that matter either!

I guess I'm just a little POed is all. Forgive my rant.

[edit] I should add that I was told by others that getting my NYS Pistol License application approved 'the first time' is unusual - and that getting it in just one year was 'really quick' for Long Island.
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[Dredly]

welcome to PA, every county is different and run by different types of people... for example most of the east coast has been infected with gun hating transplants from NY and NJ, thus resulting in less friendly areas for gun owners and shooters and the more of you that move here the more our rights and privs are taken away, our taxes go up, and our roads get worse, as does our society as a whole, massive increases in crime, from murder and rape all the way down to theft and destruction of private property have increased over 100% in the last 10 - 15 years. There is a very good reason for the sheriff to be cautious out here now

The reason they require the county proof (which is technically illegal) is because there are so many people in this state that just moved here and have 0 ties to this state. They want to make sure you aren't a psycho and someone in Philly saying you are a good guy doesn't count for crap.

As for the app... get over it. It takes you what, 10 minutes to fill out and resubmit it? You don't have to wait for your permit to expire to renew so whats it matter? You realize it took you longer to type up the rant about my state then it would have for you to fill out the app right?

I was born and raised in the Pocono's... I've watched it go from a great rural area where people used to leave their guns and bows in their trucks on school grounds because they were hunting after school to metal detectors and weekly drug sweeps in the schools.

Who is driving the changes? easy... the massive number of people moving here from the communist states to our north and east. so they could "enjoy our freedoms" and turn this state into exactly what they left, just with less taxes.

If you don't like PA then leave, New York will welcome you back with open arm's I'm sure... just check your gun at the border.

[Bruce]

welcome to PA

I've been here close to a decade, but thanks.

... and the more of you that move here the more our rights and privs are taken away

Watch it there, buddy.

The reason they require the county proof (which is technically illegal) is because there are so many people in this state that just moved here and have 0 ties to this state.

Something is either illegal or it isn't. If it is illegal, the practice should STOP.

They want to make sure you aren't a psycho and someone in Philly saying you are a good guy doesn't count for crap.

This is a non sequitur.

Psychos (at least, diagnosed psychos) aren't allowed to carry firearms - period. If I were a "prohibited" person, I couldn't buy, keep or carry a firearm anyway. As I am *not* a "prohibited" person, even without a license, I can still own and carry a firearm. So... WTF?

As for the app... get over it. It takes you what, 10 minutes to fill out and resubmit it? You don't have to wait for your permit to expire to renew so whats it matter? You realize it took you longer to type up the rant about my state then it would have for you to fill out the app right?

I have no choice but to "live with it" (for now), but I reject your recommendation to "get over it". If you don't mind being inconvenienced for no good reason, that's fine. If you don't mind being treated like a criminal, that's fine too. For all I know at this point - maybe you are a criminal and are used to the treatment.

I am glad that getting a license to carry concealed firearms is *easier* in Pennsylvania. Truly, I am.

However, I will *never* "get over" the fact that you *need* any kind of license to own or carry firearms at all in any part of the United States. Vermont, for example, require no license - you can carry any way you like there (with reference to concealment or in a vehicle) without any license at all.

If you don't like PA then leave, New York will welcome you back with open arm's I'm sure... just check your gun at the border.

You're starting to sound a little combative there, Dredly. Too much coffee?

So you were born here. Congratulations. I am a resident here too now. In your words: Get over it.

I want to see my right to keep and bear arms left without any infringement. Right now, I have to deal with it. That doesn't mean I should just shut up, roll over and take it from behind. Someone would think I was a New Yorker if I did that. You're not saying that you would do this, are you?

Hey, if you don't mind, or maybe you enjoy, having your rights violated and abused and allowing your government officials to continue illegal practices; well that's fine for you; but it annoys a lot of other people - like me.

I left New York mainly because too many people there thought just like you seem to.
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[Dredly]

I honestly don't mind re-submitting the form. there is a lot on there that will more then likely change in 5 years, such as address and weight. I'm also okay with References being checked... I would prefer they didn't do it but personally I'd rather see them checking references then giving permits to people who are alcoholics or druggies.

You can legally open carry in PA without a permit. due to the people living in this state I am fine with needing a permit to carry in a vehicle or concealed. People tend to bring the "city" mentality to the rural areas and if they had weapons I'm sure they would be used much more often. Comparing Vermont or Alaska to PA is like comparing Newark to Hartford (safest city in the US). While the con's don't follow the law anyway at least it gives on more charge

[Bruce]

I honestly don't mind re-submitting the form. there is a lot on there that will more then likely change in 5 years, such as address and weight.

I mentioned this in my post. Did you read my post? Or did you skip over that part?

I'm also okay with References being checked... I would prefer they didn't do it but personally I'd rather see them checking references then giving permits to people who are alcoholics or druggies.

I am not "okay" with any statute, case law or ordinance that requires me to get a license to exercise a constitutionally protected right; and that would include a half-assed Supreme Court decision!

There is nothing I can do (today - right now) about the whole "forced by the Sheriff to fill out a new application" thing. It is law right now that the Sheriff may use this authority. It's a bad law, but law nonetheless. I obey the law and respect proper authority - even when it is eff-ing stupid.

That does not mean I'll forever just sit idle and be quiet about it. I'm talking with my state senator. I'm talking with my state representative. I'm doing what I can to get the stupid law changed. People do know that laws, especially stupid ones, can be changed, right? People do know that authority can be revoked, right? I mean... hello? Where you people? Communist China? North Korea?

Even you, Dredly, admit that the "county" requirement by the Sheriff is illegal - yet you "honestly don't mind". WTF? Do you want Pennsylvania to end up like Jersey where the government is the largest criminal organization in the state and the corruption is rampant? Good grief!

I shouldn't need a license to speak freely; even if I want to "conceal" my speech. I shouldn't need a license to get a speedy trial by an impartial jury should I ever be prosecuted for a crime. I shouldn't need a license to practice my chosen religion; even if I choose to keep that practice "concealed" in public.

And: I shouldn't need a license to keep and bear arms.

If you don't mind getting licenses to exercise your rights, that's fine. I, however, do.

Maybe when they day comes that they require you to get a license to exercise some right that you *do* want to keep free, maybe then you finally might care too. Maybe then you'll realize just what I am talking about here.

However, it might be too late then - too many people allowed it all to go to far because they "honestly don't mind" the government controlling them, regulating their rights, doling out rights like they were privileges. They think "Hey, a little control isn't so bad." It always starts like that.

Soon enough, Pennsylvania will have a government exactly like New York City with that kind of attitude. For goodness sake - that's the reason I came here! To get away from all that crap!

You can legally open carry in PA without a permit. due to the people living in this state I am fine with needing a permit to carry in a vehicle or concealed. People tend to bring the "city" mentality to the rural areas and if they had weapons I'm sure they would be used much more often. Comparing Vermont or Alaska to PA is like comparing Newark to Hartford (safest city in the US). While the con's don't follow the law anyway at least it gives on more charge

Who compared Pennsylvania to any other state?

I stated that Vermont does not require a license to carry firearms - period. All hell does not break loose there. Citizens do not have "shootouts at high noon". There was/is no "river of blood" running down the hills. Nothing is stopping urbanites from driving into or moving to Vermont. The gangs do not relocate there for many reasons - one of the major reasons is probably because their victims don't need a license to carry arms there! One reason that the violent criminals and gangs like to stay in urban centers is because the government does a good job of keeping their victims disarmed and helpless.

I am sad for you that you do not care if your right to carry arms is regulated. Maybe you enjoy *proving* that you are innocent when you have not broken the law.

I, however, thought I was moving to America when I came here. But, apparently, it seems there are still plenty of people here (and, apparently, some that were born here) with a "more government regulation is better" mentality than I thought there would be.

I'll try and do my part to regain our stolen rights. I'll try and help to get rid of unnecessary government restrictions on law-abiding citizens. I'll keep trying to tell people that they still live in America and they can do something about what's wrong - even if they don't seem to care. I'm willing to do my part to insure our liberty, freedom and rights. But it really doesn't lift my spirits when I find out that people in my own neighborhood "honestly don't mind" when New York style government control is creeping in.

I moved here to get away from Hillary and her disgusting, disgraceful sleazy husband. I moved here because I was sick of being fed crap and forced to say it tasted good. I moved here because I love America, and because I believe in America and the Constitution of the United States. I believe in being innocent until proven guilty.

But now with the new smoking laws... neighbors who re-elected our idiot governor... and neighbors who just "honestly don't mind"...

I hear that Montana is lovely this time of year. I wonder what kind of jobs they have up there? I hear they got people there who do *honestly mind* when the government feeds them crap.
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[Dredly]

What I find most amusing is that you came from Long Island... where you must have a permit to buy a gun, and they routinely take YEARS to approve a conceal carry permit and you move away from there to a SHALL ISSUE state which has gone straight down the tubes in the last decade due to the metro pop moving to the "country"

I don't mind requiring a permit to carry a concealed weapon, I don't like the bullshit surrounding it but I am willing to deal with it to achieve my goal of self protection. I also understand why the laws are in place at this time, once again it isn't due to the locals, its due to the influx

There is no license or permit required to own and bear arms. You can openly carry all day every day without a problem (well... may want to avoid Walmart and Dickson City). Nowhere anywhere does it state you have the right to carry a weapon concealed about your person so as to ensure it is not visible to others.

I accept the laws in PA for what they are. I believe that as far as firearms go we have a comfortable level of prevention and permission. There is enough punishment associated with the permission to cause prevention (at least there would be if we would keep the fuckers in jail till their sentence was up!)

I still just find it humorous that you are this upset over having to fill out a form again.

And before you move to Montana... hehe... you may want to look at THEIR Form. 3 references that you know over 5 years, full essay on why you want a permit, and a lot of other fun stuff that PA doesn't ask. If anything they are more invasive then PA

[Bruce]

What I find most amusing is that you came from Long Island...

It's a free country; you can find whatever you want amusing.

[...]where you must have a permit to buy a gun, and they routinely take YEARS to approve a conceal carry permit and you move away from there to a SHALL ISSUE state which has gone straight down the tubes in the last decade due to the metro pop moving to the "country"

I went through this in my first post.

I was PISSED AS HECK at all of that BS.

Being stripped of my rtkba and having it doled back out to me as a "privilege" is among the main reasons why I moved the heck out of New York.

I thought that I had moved somewhere where the people cared about their rights. I thought I had moved somewhere that I would find people like me. I guess you are showing me that I was wrong. Right now, you seem just like those brainwashed idiots I thought I left behind - the ones who really don't mind if they have rights or not so long as the government "protects" them.

I don't mind requiring a permit to carry a concealed weapon, I don't like the bullshit surrounding it but I am willing to deal with it to achieve my goal of self protection.

Yes, I get that.

You don't mind having your Constitutionally protected rights infringed by the government that is supposed to uphold them. I get it.

As long as people like you don't mind, they'll keep doing it.

You "don't mind" that you no longer have an un-infringed right to keep and bear arms. No need to keep repeating it.

There is no license or permit required to own and bear arms.

Maybe you use a different definition of the word "infringed" than I do.

You can openly carry all day every day without a problem [...] Nowhere anywhere does it state you have the right to carry a weapon concealed about your person so as to ensure it is not visible to others.

Like I said: Maybe you use a different definition of the word "infringed" than I do.

I accept the laws in PA for what they are.

That - right there - is why the government gets away with taking away our rights and feeding them back to us as privileges.

It is this very attitude that brought to Right To Keep and bear Arms to the state that we see it now in New York.

I believe that as far as firearms go we have a comfortable level of prevention and permission.

Permission? Permission???

Do you think Americans should need permission to exercise any of our other Constitutionally protected rights?

I still just find it humorous that you are this upset over having to fill out a form again.

Again - you can find anything you like humorous.

I can only wonder how funny you would think it is if the government required a license to practice a religion.

Unfortunately, the current law allows the government to regulate concealed carry. Fine. Whatever. I'll help fight that, but that is not a battle for "today".

If you think that (as you seem to) I should just "Shut up and be grateful" that the Pennsylvania's brand of civil rights oppression is less oppressive then New York's, then - you are just as bad as a New Yorker.

The problem is that there are too many people like you who sit back and say:

"Darn out-of-staters. ...Coming here, changing our laws. Well, what are ya gonna do? Gosh darn out-of-staters; ruining everything. I think those people are funny."

Then, you do nothing at all about it because you don't really mind.

To me, right now, you seem just as bad as those people I left behind. You seem exactly like a New Yorker. I'm surprised you don't love those people - I'm surprised you don't roll out a red carpet to welcome them. You do seem to think and act just like them.
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