Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
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  1. #21
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    Default Re: HB 366 allow Hunting with Semi automatic Rifles in PA – Rep Saccone 2015-2016

    CR Do you really want answers to your questions as it going to long and somewhat detailed with referenced examples in support to address your posted concerns.

    BTW these are very topic related question which is awesome, so I will post tomorrow.

    Also we picked up a few co sponsors to HB 366
    Learn how to really SUPPORT the 2nd Amendment cause Go To http://www.foac-pac.org/

  2. #22
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    Default Re: HB 366 allow Hunting with Semi automatic Rifles in PA – Rep Saccone 2015-2016

    Quote Originally Posted by WhiteFeather View Post
    CR Do you really want answers to your questions as it going to long and somewhat detailed with referenced examples in support to address your posted concerns.

    BTW these are very topic related question which is awesome, so I will post tomorrow.

    Also we picked up a few co sponsors to HB 366
    If you can post answers for the benefit of all reading, that would be great. If you can't for some reason (or just have better things to do ) that's fine too.

    My primary concern is this: While I appreciate FOAC having lots of "irons in the fire", at some point if focus isn't given to the efforts that realistically have a chance, then nothing gets done at all. I'd like to know where that focus is going to be this session, and how realistic FOAC thinks it will be to get it done.
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  3. #23
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    Default Re: HB 366 allow Hunting with Semi automatic Rifles in PA – Rep Saccone 2015-2016

    Quote Originally Posted by Ricochet View Post
    I think a 5 round limit is stupid.
    Cyote , ground hog and other varmint hunting would reasonably require more than five rounds.
    I think its stupid too, but let's get what we can get now. We can always modify the round limit later. Remember, we have the laziest legislature this side of the nut house, and a wolf in the governor's office. He won't sign something without a round limit. However, I say isn't should be a mag limit- but a round limit. Ie 10 round mags are fine, if they are loaded to 5. Yes its extremely dumb, but sometimes you have to play the game slowly to get what you want.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: HB 366 allow Hunting with Semi automatic Rifles in PA – Rep Saccone 2015-2016

    ChamberedRound thanks again for detailed &constructive questions on subject

    Disclaimer
    I have work with FOAC leadership for about 20 years now, in all of that time of have never been elected to BOD or elected to any leadership position in FOAC so in short I am not authorized to speak on Firearm Owners Against Crime behalf on this or any other subject

    Still since I do volueeters so much time, for so many years on 2nd A I do get a courtesy seat at the table to voice my opinion as to what bills to push, still the final decision is by a general consensus of many voices, not just mine

    CR questions here were similar asked in the group to me “why this issue”, as some don’t hunt, CR questions are very germane to the subject

    All of this post is my opinion only for whatever it worth really is, so please don’t use anything posted here to represent any groups that I work with, it’s just my opinion

    As far as setting legislative priories
    I just post the pending legislative bills on PAFOA each of you decide what bills you want to support & which one you don’t by your actions-deeds of contacting the Reps

    ALL of your efforts to contact the Reps on any given bill, along with some of the passionate Reps elected to office help move legislation that is with enough public support, without both we get nothing

    Like any one of you I am FREE to lobby and advocate for any concept that with enhance our rights and freedom behind the scenes. me personally, I like to work on bills that get the biggest bang for the most people negatively effected by unfair firearm laws, it also the best chance to find good people like many on PAFOA that are very passionate about protecting their rights willing to join in the fight.


    First question
    Don’t know the farmer’s - landowner’s position, as you mentioned know first hand of some of their opposition to Sunday Hunting mostly from the farm bureau. my opinion FB leadership wasted a golden opportunity when they were in the driver seat to get the criminal trespassing laws fix or something in exchange for SH

    Really don’t anticipate thousands of acres of private property to posted over the change with semi-auto rifle change in HB 366 when it passes

    As HB 366 has never gotten a public hearing to determine who’s against beside the normal anti-gunner and anti-hunters would be opposed

    To date the most vocal against in opposition is “traditionist hunters” besides the debates here on PAFOA and gun clubs mostly seemed too based on feeling & emotions lacking any real facts to support their views

    Everyone has their own view point, which orifice’s their opinion comes from depend if it spoken with knowledge and facts or from the orifice that just smells up the room

    When we have brought this subject up of removing the ban for the use of semi-auto rifles at different gun clubs meeting over the last few years, by a raise of hand at the start about FOR 70-60% to 30 -40% against

    when we explain it in detail about other 48 states etc. that this just remove the legislative restriction from the PGC & its not about species or what can be hunted with what firearm & the points about semi-auto shotguns legal to hunt with without any drama

    The objections then fall to about 10-15% that still don’t want any change as they seem to only care how this “effects me“ short sighted view point, not looking toward the future growth for the next generation. They will stick their fingers in the ears and yell at you citing much of the drama covered in question two…….there is nothing to can to change their mind. They can’t & don’t want to answer question outlined below as it only about deer and fear to them

    You want to see them get beet red mad at you, mention they have the same irrational objections as what anti-gunners say about LTCF permits legislation, or constitutional carry etc. They just don’t get it, bad people don’t care what the laws and regulations are, the only people who care what the written laws are the good people which don’t require much regulations, when the laws are fair and just to all or have a sound reason for existing

    Second question some of the answers as to why change the restriction are already posted in this thread

    Most of our pro-gun agenda is title 18 legislation & always stuck in judiciary committee subject to the chairman desecration which bills run and which bill die in committee, session after session, the chairman in the past in general they typical are not gun friendly or supporters to the cause in either house. Mostly why we don’t get to much passed despite who the governor is

    Change the restriction on semi-auto rifles is a title 34 bill which goes in Game and Fish Committee usually having more supporter serving on this committee, most members hunt and fish

    With HB 366 We also now have two venues for getting something passed instead of just one


    Governor Wolf when running for election has made his views known & gun owners in PA either by ignorance or apathy didn’t care enough do their part. So once again PA has another anti-gun governor holding office as it has been for every governor for the last 20 plus years I been fighting this war. Other than getting 4 year as a breather during Governor Corbett term none have been our friends

    Governor Wolf when running claims he is a supporter of hunters, this HB 366 would make an excellent test to see what this campaign really promise means


    SPORTING AND OUTDOORS
    Pennsylvania has a long and proud history of hunting, fishing, and outdoor recreation. With 120 state parks, 2.2 million acres of state forests, 85,000 miles of streams and rivers, more than 600,000 acres of lakes and ponds, and 1.4 million acres of state game lands, our commonwealth is a desirable outdoor destination for both residents and visitors.
    According to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and U.S. Census Bureau, in 2011 4.6 million residents and visitors over the age of 15 enjoyed outdoor activities, such as hunting, fishing, and wildlife watching. These outdoor enthusiasts spent $2.8 billion in Pennsylvania on both trip- and activity-related expenses.
    As a resident of central Pennsylvania, Tom Wolf knows firsthand the importance of hunting and fishing as well as protecting the second amendment. His business – like those throughout the county – used to close the first day of hunting season. Tom Wolf believes we need to continue to grow our outdoor recreation sector and ensure that state policies promote the rights of hunters and anglers, support conservation efforts, protect our air and water, and strengthen our outdoor tourism industry. As governor, Tom Wolf will:

    Protect the rights of gunowners, hunters, and anglers -- Our sportsmen and women have played a major role in shaping our outdoor recreation sector and have been vocal about the need to protect our natural habitats. As governor, Tom Wolf will work to make sure licences and other fees are priced appropriately and key stakeholders have a voice in all relevant policy decisions.

    Tom Wolf knows Pennsylvania has a long history of responsible gun ownership. As governor, he will continue to support the Second Amendment and protect the right of residents to own firearms
    The above was from candidate Wolf's web site

    Former Fast Eddie Rendell was a VERY vocal anti-gunner governor who always lobbied for more gun control. It’s easy to find public statements about banning semi-auto rifles because they are not used for hunting (only here in PA and Delaware is this a True statement) It’s always funny listening to people who don’t hunt, how game is harvested.

    Here is an example of Rendell
    Number two, get rid of these assault riffles. Nobody needs it to hunt, nobody needs it to protect their home, just like nobody needs a clip that has more than 10 bullets.
    http://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/201...-hook-tragedy/

    Former governor Tom Ridge – who personal signed more gun control legislation than any two other PA governor combined was possible when the republican held control of both houses- so much for that myth that republican are always our friends and should get a free pass. Its also why so many RINO especially from southeastern PA don’t want to vote on firearm related bills, as they know they will catch hell from gun owners back in their district especially when FOAC informs them when they have a pro-gun challenger to vote for instead of them.

    Statement by Ex-governor Ridge certainly no friend of gun owners
    But while Ridge agreed that assault weapons and high capacity ammunition clips should be banned,
    http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/ind...lt_weapon.html

    As a look back in history despite anti-gun governor Rendell vocal view points on firearms. Reluctantly, even grudgingly Rendell signed every firearm bill related that made it to his desk except one that was after Election Day & at the end of his terms where he did care about any future political opposition. Rendell signed everything because it wasn’t worth the political ramification of veto override to his authority and distract from his own agenda

    That is the short answer why even anti-gun governors don’t veto something like this effort as it not really controversial …. REALLY 48 out of 50 states its legal, in NJ, NY, MD states that most consider more anti-gun you can hunt with a semi-auto rifle but not in PA, whats the up side for Wolf to veto this one? As the PGC still has authority to say what firearm you can use where

    During Rendell term we had an ace up our sleeve the “Blue Dog” democrats that are solid pro-gun mostly from south western PA ( FOAC core area) I would put theses “Blue Dog” democrats against almost any so called Republican In Name Only from south eastern PA & under Rendell they controlled the house leadership by a few votes, which they wanted to keep.
    These same “Blue Dog” democrats will hold their leadership accountable and fight to defend our rights on firearms with bitter and heated debates behind close door in caucus meeting over gun control, something is very much lacking in Republican caucus other than a very few

    Republican’s in PA as a party in general observation only seem to be willing to move pro gun measures when they are a few members out of being a majority party in either house and are looking to use this issue to pick up seats in the next election cycle

    When PA Republican hold a super majority we get very little passed even with such low hang fruit bills. Hence the reason nothing really pro-gun has been passed by the PA republican controlled senate in at least 20 years as they have held a super majority and the good old boy club rules the roost

    The good old boy club that runs HBG have the same view held by Ex-Governor Ridge paraphrased here “why should I listen to gun owners and sportsmen’s concerns, most are not registered to vote and even less bother to vote”

    All of this above is why we couldn’t get this and Many other pro-gun measures passed under governor Corbett and why we got more pro gun bills sign by a vocal anti-gun governor like Rendell

    FEAR of a Wolf VETO on a HB 366 or any Other pro-gun bill is an just a convenient excuse why people won’t get involved.

    IF Wolf veto HB 366 “as written now” FOAC would choke him with his campaign promise, so would lot of others and would cost him votes as lot of union guys hunt

    Whenever union leadership give union dues money to anti-gun groups they do us a great PR favor, especially when we pass out the documentation on union job sites during hunting season right before election day, along with a FOAC pro gun voters guide, is very effective


    On to the all based emotional objections for changing the restriction on semi-auto rifles for hunting in PA it can be boiled to this talking points concepts

    - Currently in PA you can hunt with semi-auto rifle and pistol you just got to be missing a hand to qualify, can anyone show how these disabled hunters are more irresponsible?

    - Statically speaking you are more likely to be injured in a vehicle accident going to or from hunting, than a hunting accident.

    - 48 of 50 states allow semi-auto rifles for hunting for some specie of game in those states can someone show with document proof how any different type of firearm mechanical action is more dangerous, than another type. You won’t find proof because it doesn’t exist as no game agency tracks it as it not a hardware problem, its slob hunters that make all the sportsmen’s look bad, not the firearm they hunt with

    - Important Case in point can someone show how a semi-auto shotgun is more dangerous or makes you more likely to be irresponsible than other different mechanical shotgun actions in PA. As this is the core argument against always cited against change with semi-auto rifles

    - Keep in this other important point in mind for those against never answer this questions. PA has for decades allowed unplugged semi-auto shotguns to be used in the hunting of deer in the most densely urban populated parts in PA very little woods lots of home (special regulation area for deer hunting)

    You would think IF semi-auto shotguns could cause more harm more dangerous or people are more trigger happy in PA than other states the PGC with their regulator powers to control legal arms use in PA wouldn’t allow them for hunting in these most heavily populated counties in PA and ONLY allow semi-auto shotguns in the rural areas of PA

    - Modern Rifle slugs used in high tech semi-auto shotguns can take deer out to 200 yards that is a lot more slug and mass retained down range than a 30 caliber has

    - Do we REALLY need to go into detail how shotguns with a single pull a of trigger loaded with modern buckshot shell can send numerous 30 cal +/- projectiles down range at the same time and can effective kill a deer out to 70 yards plus even when some of the buck shot goes missing (can someone say SPRAY with only one 00 shotgun shell….), and these same semi-auto shotguns are legal for use once again in the most densely part of PA for deer hunting without all the claim drama that those against say will happen IF semi-auto rifles would be legalized in PA.

    Again the PGC would have the final authority to say where and where not semi-auto rifles can be use or what could be hunted with them!

    Do you NOW want to ban semi-auto shotguns for hunting in PA? why stop there, lets ban everything except flintlock muzzleloaders as this is your excuse you claim is the reason for opposition semi-auto rifles because of rapid fire & hunters in PA (including YOU especially) are less responsible than all the hunters in 48 others states are now with semi-auto firearm use

    PA has a bunch of clown and idiots hunting same as other states do, Do we have more than other states, the hunting safety stats say we got less thanks to hunter education programs being establish in PA and WCO / hunters policing our ranks

    It really gets old hearing the dramatized stories of people relating machine gun like fire in PA with bolt, pump and lever guns. people watching the old 1960’s tv series the rifle man with a rapid firing level guns

    The first question that I ask to the drama queen, did you go confront them on the safety issue or call a Wildlife Conservation Officer to report the slob irresponsible hunter. If they say they did nothing….I say “what is your point then?”

    If they want to cite the BS excuses about military rifles are not suitable for hunting application nonsense, take them a on reality check with lessons from history of the founding of our Republic with military application of 1775 squirrel rifles to civil war guns such as lever guns, pump action, bolt action rifles and semi-auto rifles all used by a military at one time and all now used in recreational hunting

    More inconvenient facts

    In 2005 PA did a study to see if shotguns were safer for hunting than center fire rifles. The results surprised most everyone (without common sense along with knowledge of ammunition and ballistics mass vs velocity / kinetic energy) as they were attempting to make PA a shotgun only state for deer. . . several states actually used this PA study to legalize center fire rifles for hunting

    In my opinion only… this shotgun study was a covert back door long view effort to do away with rifle ownership in PA as IF you can not hunt with center fire rifles in PA there is no need to own one. Less rifles bought, more sold over time. Drain the lake with less water it’s much easier to net the remaining fish.
    At some future point it would be easier to outright ban rifle ownership in PA, then it would an effort to ban all blood sports. The goal is separate you and your liberty teeth from your children and grandchildren and sever all ties with the past history, along with the true purpose of the 2nd A to counter check Tranny, domestic or foreign in origin, not about hunting.

    We get lots of resistance to any pro-gun movement in HBG even with low hanging fruit such as the stupid law that you can not stop anywhere to transport an unload and secured handgun in PA without a LTCF permit

    HB 718 – Right to Transport Firearms

    I could understand lots of major resistance and similar claimed drama over a bill like HB 230 Constitutional Carry

    So no matter what, We are going to get resistance to anything positive related to being firearms friendly in HBG, unless it banning something then the media won’t print a word

    This legalizing semi-auto rifle hunting in PA efforts appeals to a different group of PA gun owners that really don’t care much for most of the other pro gun bill efforts

    We look at this effort with HB 366 legalizing semi-auto rifles as opening up a second front using potential new activist forces that care about this hunting issue


    Beside ALL my life I been told that you don’t need that type or this type of firearm because you can’t hunt with it in PA, really…… it’s called the bill of rights, not the bill of needs

    IF you don’t like the idea of sharing the wood with hunters using semi-auto rifles when we get this signed into law, move to some other state that still prohibits them for hunting

    Wait a minute that doesn’t leave you to many choices of which state where you could go now does it.

    Again see my personal disclaimer at top.

    There are numerous PAFOA thread and discussions about the legalization of Hunting with semi-auto rifles in PA, take you complaint against to one of those

    Respectfully Requesting from ALL ... How about keeping the focus of this thread on seeking passage.

    IF you have a constructive question on the subject of hunting with semi-auto rifles or how you can help with passage - please ask.

    Learn how to really SUPPORT the 2nd Amendment cause Go To http://www.foac-pac.org/

  5. #25
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    Default Re: HB 366 allow Hunting with Semi automatic Rifles in PA – Rep Saccone 2015-2016

    Update 3-30-2015

    We picked up a few more co sponsors to HB 366 along with a couple of groups have submitted official letters of support of HB 366


    \/ See this link here for count and who is currently co sponsoring HB 366 \/


    https://foac-pac.org/Proposed-Pennsy.../State-Law/675


    Thanks to all of you who have contact the Reps about HB 366

    For everyone else that would like the Freedom to choose what firearm you wish to hunt with in PA.

    please see OP with batch email address and ask them to co sponsor HB 366

    Especially FOCUS on ALL the Game & Fish committee members with phone calls and emails, IF you want to have the opportunity to hunt with your favorite semi-auto rifle in PA.

    Freedom isn't Free, You need to take direct action and get personally involved if you want this option in PA as hunters currently have in 48 out of 50 states to hunt with their favor semi-auto rifle.


    Your action is what's required to get the legislative prohibition removed, to give the PGC the freedom to decide what semi-auto rifle is applicable for what game, same as they do with other rifles and firearms.

    Again HB 366 does not remove any delegated power the PGC currently has to decide what specie of game can be hunted where or with what.


    .


    REFERRED TO COMMITTEE ON GAME AND FISHERIES, FEBRUARY 9, 2015
    AN ACT


    Amending Title 34 (Game) of the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes, in hunting and furtaking, further providing for unlawful devices and methods.
    The General Assembly of the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania hereby enacts as follows:

    Section 1. Section 2308(a)(2) and (3) of Title 34 of the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes are amended to read:

    § 2308. Unlawful devices and methods.

    (a) General rule.--Except as otherwise provided in this title, it is unlawful for any person to hunt or aid, abet, assist or conspire to hunt any game or wildlife through the use of: * * *

    (2) A semiautomatic [rifle or] pistol.

    (3) [ (Reserved).] A semiautomatic centerfire rifle, unless the semiautomatic centerfire rifle is limited to a five-shell capacity, not including the rifle's chamber. This paragraph includes a semiautomatic rimfire rifle in .22 caliber without an ammunition capacity limit.

    * * * Section 2. This act shall take effect in 60 days.

    As you can read the text of HB 366 is straight forward, its only one page long and simply removes the provision in title 34 of the game codes that now currently exists in law that prohibits semi-auto rifles in section (2) and uses the reserved section (3) with new proposed text
    Learn how to really SUPPORT the 2nd Amendment cause Go To http://www.foac-pac.org/

  6. #26
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    Default Re: HB 366 allow Hunting with Semi automatic Rifles in PA – Rep Saccone 2015-2016

    If I read it correctly, a .17 cal semi-auto rimfire would still be prohibited. Odd no one caught that.

  7. #27
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    Default Re: HB 366 allow Hunting with Semi automatic Rifles in PA – Rep Saccone 2015-2016

    There is one semi auto 17hmr in existence and it came out at shot show

  8. #28
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    Default Re: HB 366 allow Hunting with Semi automatic Rifles in PA – Rep Saccone 2015-2016

    Quote Originally Posted by fishdart View Post
    If I read it correctly, a .17 cal semi-auto rimfire would still be prohibited. Odd no one caught that.
    Quote Originally Posted by NathanB View Post
    There is one semi auto 17hmr in existence and it came out at shot show
    It was thoroughly researched, at that time, the few models in existence wasn't worth the extra confusion & extra language required to have them included in this effort, as it was just a bridge to far, for to little return.

    FYI there are mid to late 1800's rim fire cartridges in larger than 22 rim fire

    Line had to drawn somewhere.... so instead focused on max returns for most people.


    Right now IF people are not contacting the Reps to ask them to become a co-sponsor on HB 366 to allow Hunting with Semi automatic Rifles in PA

    This is what's required, to make this happen ~ OR ~

    we all got nothing, so IF you want the Freedom to choose see OP and do your part to help get the legislative prohibition removed!
    Learn how to really SUPPORT the 2nd Amendment cause Go To http://www.foac-pac.org/

  9. #29
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    Default Re: HB 366 allow Hunting with Semi automatic Rifles in PA – Rep Saccone 2015-2016

    Quote Originally Posted by NathanB View Post
    There is one semi auto 17hmr in existence and it came out at shot show
    Yes the new Savage rifle. Plus, Alexander Arms has a .17 HMR AR-pattern rifle. There are also .17 cal conversion barrels for the 10/22 and 10/22 Magnum rifles....

    Anyhow, it seems the wording of "no capacity limit" could simply be applied to "rimfire" firearms. Simple wording in my book.

    In any case, don't misconstrue that I don't support the proposed bill nor appreciate the effort behind it. I was merely pointing out what I perceive as an odd bit of verbiage.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: HB 366 allow Hunting with Semi automatic Rifles in PA – Rep Saccone 2015-2016

    I'm seeing if I might be able to bring in some help on this.
    "You can't stop insane people from doing insane things by passing insane laws--that's insane!" -- Penn Jillette

    "To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." -- Ted Nugent

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