Pennsylvania Firearm Owners Association
Results 1 to 4 of 4
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Scranton, Pennsylvania
    (Lackawanna County)
    Age
    51
    Posts
    2,677
    Rep Power
    0

    Default Lackawanna county parks preemption violation.

    over the past week, i took the family out all over. i'm laid off, and have time on my hands, so i'm taking advantage. so far, we've been to Nay Aug park, Connell park, both in Scranton. we're planning to go to Merli-Sarnoski park in a few days for a picnic. it's a county run park. i called to make sure of the rules. the county admitted it doesn't have any written rules, other than no alcohol and no fireworks. great!, later, we went to McDade park in taylor, also county run. guess what we saw?



    so, although the county doesn't have a set of written rules, i have signs to worry about. i walked around for about 20 minutes before i saw it. good thing i wasn't stopped by the police....
    Last edited by jahwarrior72; July 5th, 2008 at 06:02 PM.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Mountain Top, Pennsylvania
    (Luzerne County)
    Age
    53
    Posts
    11,944
    Rep Power
    632699

    Default Re: Lackawanna county parks preemption violation.

    Moved thread to OC/CC section.

    Bumping thread due to new info obtained by jahwarrior's follow-up as posted here:

    http://www.pafoa.org/forum/concealed...o-sheriff.html
    a few weeks ago, i took a picture of a sign in McDade Park, a Lackawanna County park, with their rules on it. among the few rules listed, was one stating 'no firearms': http://www.pafoa.org/forum/question-...tml#post357067

    like i said i would, i emailed the county commissioner's office about it. actually, i emailed a few people. here's who i contacted, in order:

    first, i contacted Bill Davis, the parks director. i emailed, then called a few days later. his office refused to answer any of my questions, and directed me to contact the county commissioner's office.



    i then emailed the commissioner's office. after a few days, i called them. i left a message for them, and made an appointment to meet either commissioner Washo or O'Brien. a few days later, i recieved a call from their office. their assistant instructed me to contact Bill Moran, the head of their legal department, and i was assured that all of my questions would be answered by him.



    so, here's me, calling up the lawyer. i left a message for him, and he called me back a day later. he went on to say (or rather pass the buck off) that the sheriff's office was responsible for the sign (a sign in a park?), and that i should speak to sheriff John Szymanski or deputy sheriff Dom Manetti.



    i hung up, and called the sheriff's office. i spoke to a deputy, and told him my story. he was very sympathetic, and annoyed that every party involved chose to pass the buck to them. he also said that the sign was, in fact, violating state law, and that his boss would surely get to the bottom of it. he put me through to Manetti's line. i got a machine, so i left a message.

    a few minutes later, he called back. he said he already knew of the situation, because every other party involved forwarded my emails and phone conversations to him. he asked me to tell him again anyway. i won't repeat the conversation word for word, because that's take an hour. to be short about it, i asked him the legality of the sign, citing the Uniform Firearms Act of PA, and whether the county could enforce the park rules. his response, simply, was that although i would not be arrested for carrying a gun in the park, i would be escorted of the property.

    ?

    he went on to say that although open carry on public property is not illegal, as is concealed carry with a LTCF, and that open carry is not considered 'disorderly conduct,' it could be considered a 'public nuisance'; that means, a person OCing could be treated like someone who is screaming for no reason, playing rock'n'roll too loudly on a boombox, or yelling at someone's kids: they won't arrest them, but they will escort them out of the park, until their annoying behavior stops. so, essentially, if i carry in a park, and someone calls the police, Scranton PD and Lackawanna County sheriffs will arrive to escort me to my van, and make me lock up my gun, or they'll make sure i leave the park.

    here's where it gets interesting.

    when i asked about this 'public nuisance' law, and where it could be applied. his response: anywhere, at anytime, on public property.

    "so, if i leave my apartment, with a gun on my belt, and walk down the street to the store, a cop can stop me and make me go back home, and leave it there? is that what you're saying?"

    "well, technically, yes. it sounds crazy, but many people have the wrong idea about public property. there are rules you have to follow. this isn't the wild west, and although you can't be arrested for carrying a gun, you can be asked to cover it up, or leave it home."

    i was more than a little shocked. "well, what if you don't have a LTCF?"

    "then you shouldn't be carrying a gun! there's no good reason not to get a license, if you're legally able to do so..."

    "seriously, you're saying that a cop can tell me i can't carry a gun openly walking down the street? seriously?"

    "i'm saying that can happen, yes. hello? hello?"

    i was speechless for a minute or so.

    "so, to get around the Uniform Firearms Act, you're saying that a LEO can cite the 'public nuisance' laws to discourage the open carry of a firearm?"

    "it's not 'getting around' anything," he said. he started to sound uncomfortable. "i'm simply saying that if you have a gun in the open, and someone calls the police, you can be cited for causing a public nuisance. something that can scare or disturb or annoy the public falls under that law, and, yes, many folks are scared of guns. you're gonna have to get used to that fact."

    "soooooo, if i'm in a parking lot of a supermarket and some guy starts yelling and cursing at me, in front of my kids, while i'm putting groceries away, could that be considered a 'public nuisance'?"

    "yes, and harrassment, maybe."

    "okay. ugh."

    "i hope i could help you out, and i hope i've answered any questions you may have had. i'm sorry if you're not satisfied with the answers."

    "well, i'm not satisfied, but i appreciate your professionalism, and your honesty."



    now what? i've been told by the sheriff that a cop can stop me from OCing on foot, anywhere, at anytime. the county commissioner's office making sure to keep me at arm's length, and absolutely nothing has changed. i'm not sure what to do next. any advice, you guys?

    Lets continue the discussion regarding the attempt to address and resolve the PARK issue in this thread...


    _________________________________________

    danbus wrote: ...Like I said before, I open carry because you don't, I fight for all my rights because
    you won't, I will not sit with my thumb up my bum and complain, because you will.
    Remember Meleanie

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Mountain Top, Pennsylvania
    (Luzerne County)
    Age
    53
    Posts
    11,944
    Rep Power
    632699

    Default Re: Lackawanna county parks preemption violation.

    As I posted in the other thread (before I realized the existence of this one )



    The sign in county park is a county commissioners and solicitor issue.
    They make the regs (probably a "recreation" or "parks" sub-committee) but i suspect that the commission is responsible for approving all regs and ordinances. Similar to twp and city. someone correct me if I am wrong please.

    If so I think we need to attend a county commissioners meeting
    http://lackawanna.granicus.com/ViewP....php?view_id=2
    ... and bring the issue to their attention in public. The county solicitor probably attends the meetings also which is who the commissioners will refer the issue to.
    _________________________________________

    danbus wrote: ...Like I said before, I open carry because you don't, I fight for all my rights because
    you won't, I will not sit with my thumb up my bum and complain, because you will.
    Remember Meleanie

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Scranton, Pennsylvania
    (Lackawanna County)
    Posts
    1,065
    Rep Power
    21286

    Default Re: Lackawanna county parks preemption violation.


    Taken last week, three emails ignored by sheriff and Manetti. Jah, want to team up?
    Millions for defense, Not one cent for tribute!

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 275
    Last Post: October 12th, 2010, 04:28 PM
  2. Replies: 297
    Last Post: July 7th, 2009, 12:08 PM
  3. where in lackawanna county....
    By jahwarrior72 in forum General
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: August 28th, 2008, 04:47 PM
  4. Possible UFA violation in Lycoming County
    By s.vermeire in forum General
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: April 4th, 2008, 10:43 PM
  5. Replies: 3
    Last Post: February 21st, 2008, 02:31 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •